Monorail Thoughts... Not sure where to post...

Tom

Beta Return
Not tryin to spam, but got to thinkin... Should a train break down on the beam, that pretty much shuts out any estimation of moving trains... THEN, with automation in place, how would one be able to get the tractor from say Shop to Epcot beam? Just an example... Would they stop all trains, and then have to hope they can Merry-Go-Round the tractor down that way? Just some thoughts that crossed my mind... Or for instance, Train breaks down in the epcot station... There's One train behind, one ahead... How would the tractor get there? Odd little thoughts I was thinking of. Do you think they'll just keep Monorail Pilots altogether, and have them with a Manual Drive override for this sorta thing?

I mean sure, with Automation, new trains could auto-couple, but then, how's one gonna fit in the station? What are we gonna do, unload the broken down train in a station, and then move the working train in? :S

As long as power isn't completely out to the beam, they could still manually drive other trains around to make way for the tractor. But as lazyboy97o said, the block system should allow the tractor to access any train on the Epcot line, from one direction or the other.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
There would still be a block system in place to maintain safe distances. The tractor would get to its destination in the same way it would now. Depending on the system trains could be moved remotely or manually.

As long as power isn't completely out to the beam, they could still manually drive other trains around to make way for the tractor. But as lazyboy97o said, the block system should allow the tractor to access any train on the Epcot line, from one direction or the other.

It all still seems potentially problematic to me, yanno? Just random thoughts that pop into my head about it all. I'd imgine after full Automation that they'd keep CM's in their post though..
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
It all still seems potentially problematic to me, yanno? Just random thoughts that pop into my head about it all. I'd imgine after full Automation that they'd keep CM's in their post though..
What makes it any more problematic? They're not adding more trains to a line.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
And I'm curious to know what you think could happen that could not happen now.
That's true though. :S

Wellllll - Sandy and I have an unpopular thought....

.... we're starting to AVOID them. We're doing this because we can walk away from a stuck buss, and grab a cab if we need to. Dead Mono way the high up? Not so easy :(. And we're just seeing too many of these.
And tbh, I'm hoping the new trains would avoid that issue!
 

boufa

Well-Known Member
Wellllll - Sandy and I have an unpopular thought....

.... we're starting to AVOID them. We're doing this because we can walk away from a stuck buss, and grab a cab if we need to. Dead Mono way the high up? Not so easy :(. And we're just seeing too many of these.

You do as you wish, of course, but the buses are in far, far, far more accidents. They cause an exceptionally larger number of injuries than the monorails.

HOWEVER, in both cases the number of issues, especially when put in terms of passenger travel miles, is very, very, very low. If you don't like to be up there, and have a fear that's fine for you, but if we are being truly intellectually honest... the monorail is the only way to go.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Wellllll - Sandy and I have an unpopular thought....

.... we're starting to AVOID them. We're doing this because we can walk away from a stuck buss, and grab a cab if we need to. Dead Mono way the high up? Not so easy :(. And we're just seeing too many of these.
Refer to below answer...

You do as you wish, of course, but the buses are in far, far, far more accidents. They cause an exceptionally larger number of injuries than the monorails.

HOWEVER, in both cases the number of issues, especially when put in terms of passenger travel miles, is very, very, very low. If you don't like to be up there, and have a fear that's fine for you, but if we are being truly intellectually honest... the monorail is the only way to go.
The monorails are quite foolproof too, I think. With MAPO in place and whatnot, the only issue is the every so often train breakdown simply from old age. I've never seen a car NOT break down at least once. Those trains have (IIRC) 4 motors driving the train, plus 12 beam top tires, and roughly 48+/- guide/stabilizing tires. There's anything on one of these trains that could act up from time to time. They're near 30 years old if I remember! @peachykeen and @Monorail_Red wanna elaborate?
 

Timon

Well-Known Member
Disney monorails just need a little modern love -

- Station level with train floors - Current MarkVI doors sink down before pushing out and opening. This is to make the doors smooth with the body of the train. The draw back is the station has to be low enough to clear the doors. Current Bombardier INNOVIA 200 & 300 doors slide along the outside of the train without sinking, so Las Vegas and Sao Paulo have flush floors.
Las Vegas INNOVIA 200 (MVI)
LVM%2520Station%2520doors.JPG


- Modern stations have full glass walls and automated doors which lines up with the train. Making it very difficult to fall on the beam at a station. Bonus - these stations can be air conditioned if completely glassed in.
Sao Paulo Brazil Line15 Oratorio Station
Sao%2520Paulo%2520L%252315%2520Bombardier%2520Track%252013%2520Construction.jpg


- Emergency walk ways between the beams
Sao Paulo INNOVIA 300
Sao%2520Paulo%2520L%252315%2520Bombardier%2520Track%252012%2520Construction.jpg


- Train to train coupling for one train to pull another on latest INNOVIA 200 & INNOVIA 300
Sao Paulo Brazil INNNOVIA 300
Sao%2520Paulo%2520L%252315%2520Bombardier%252018%2520Coupled.jpg


- Disney has never had a true central Control Center for the monorails with cameras at every station and in every train and full control of the switches and power to every section. The new automation system will add this and sadly no one will ever see it.
Jacksonville Monorail Central Control
Jacksonville%2520Monorail%2520Central%2520Control.JPG
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Disney monorails just need a little modern love -

- Station level with train floors - Current MarkVI doors sink down before pushing out and opening. This is to make the doors smooth with the body of the train. The draw back is the station has to be low enough to clear the doors. Current Bombardier INNOVIA 200 & 300 doors slide along the outside of the train without sinking, so Las Vegas and Sao Paulo have flush floors.
Las Vegas INNOVIA 200 (MVI)
LVM%2520Station%2520doors.JPG


- Modern stations have full glass walls and automated doors which lines up with the train. Making it very difficult to fall on the beam at a station. Bonus - these stations can be air conditioned if completely glassed in.
Sao Paulo Brazil Line15 Oratorio Station
Sao%2520Paulo%2520L%252315%2520Bombardier%2520Track%252013%2520Construction.jpg


- Emergency walk ways between the beams
Sao Paulo INNOVIA 300
Sao%2520Paulo%2520L%252315%2520Bombardier%2520Track%252012%2520Construction.jpg


- Train to train coupling for one train to pull another on latest INNOVIA 200 & INNOVIA 300
Sao Paulo Brazil INNNOVIA 300
Sao%2520Paulo%2520L%252315%2520Bombardier%252018%2520Coupled.jpg


- Disney has never had a true central Control Center for the monorails with cameras at every station and in every train and full control of the switches and power to every section. The new automation system will add this and sadly no one will ever see it.
Jacksonville Monorail Central Control
Jacksonville%2520Monorail%2520Central%2520Control.JPG
I DONT WANNA MMODERNIZE THAT MUCH, SHHHHH!!
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
You do as you wish, of course, but the buses are in far, far, far more accidents. They cause an exceptionally larger number of injuries than the monorails.

HOWEVER, in both cases the number of issues, especially when put in terms of passenger travel miles, is very, very, very low. If you don't like to be up there, and have a fear that's fine for you, but if we are being truly intellectually honest... the monorail is the only way to go.
I don't think the problem is about accidents, it is about being stranded in a broken train. The height of the track as you leave or enter the Contemporary (MK side) is enough to give me pause. Even if it they could reach it easily with a scissor lift vehicle, the thought of it makes me shiver. It is possible to put catwalks on the rails, but it would completely ruin the overall futuristic effect that they were going for. That is why you will never see an expansion of the monorail system and possibly it's eventual complete removal.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I don't think the problem is about accidents, it is about being stranded in a broken train. The height of the track as you leave or enter the Contemporary (MK side) is enough to give me pause. Even if it they could reach it easily with a scissor lift vehicle, the thought of it makes me shiver. It is possible to put catwalks on the rails, but it would completely ruin the overall futuristic effect that they were going for. That is why you will never see an expansion of the monorail system and possibly it's eventual complete removal.
Those issues can and have been handled. They're hardly reasons going against the system.
 

Timon

Well-Known Member
I DONT WANNA MMODERNIZE THAT MUCH, SHHHHH!!
What bothers you about having a state of the art upgraded system vs a 40 year old system? You realize they would Disney-ize the train bodies and interior of a INNOVIA 200 and theme update the stations. Seems like a no brainer.
 

nace888

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
What bothers you about having a state of the art upgraded system vs a 40 year old system? You realize they would Disney-ize the train bodies and interior of a INNOVIA 200 and theme update the stations. Seems like a no brainer.
Well that part I'm waiting for, of course! It's just the thought of automating I'm not fond of. While it's useful, just kinda damages the image a little bit for me. I'm welcoming it with open arms though, just not ready for it! :D

My fear though, is that they'll not Disneyfy the trains, and keep the look straight from Bombardier. It's not a bad thing, but to me the ?Mark IV and Mark VI LearJet image comes with WDW, I think. Though, I could envision a mix of Mark VI and Mark VII, while keepin the Mark VI-ish look... Honestly, I think an upgrade is much needed though, and was still half asleep when I posted that... awks...
 

morningstar

Well-Known Member
What bothers you about having a state of the art upgraded system vs a 40 year old system? You realize they would Disney-ize the train bodies and interior of a INNOVIA 200 and theme update the stations. Seems like a no brainer.

I agree. I don't want to see the glass barrier at Disney World. I like the stations being open air. In a climate such as Orlando, being outside is quite pleasant, at least with the shade. I also think they make boarding about as exciting as getting in an elevator. Even though it's glass, they obscure your view of the approaching train pretty badly.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Those issues can and have been handled. They're hardly reasons going against the system.
I don't resist nor do I think anyone else should. What I am saying is that as the people responsible for "rescuing" people from such a possibility, it is not worth the effort, in the companies mind. They will rescue them and all will be fine, but, they no longer have the desire to expand that responsibility. That was my point. Monorails are safe, but they come with their own unique problems. Problems that don't exist in rail or highway vehicles. I don't know of many "real" injuries on the buses or trams. I know that they have inflected many on people not on the bus or tram, but, that's isn't really the point. The only occasion where anyone within one of the Disney vehicles was the unfortunate accident on July 4th, TIKO.
 

Timon

Well-Known Member
Other than buses I've never known Disney to order off-the-shelf for such a high profile item. Bombardier makes different front ends for each train system which isn't unusual. Disney does have a habit of reinventing the wheel like they did with the Mark VII, cool look, faulty quality, faulty tech, one less train, lower capacity per train etc.

Glass walls - I live here, it's hot, 90 degrees everyday for 6 months. After hiking around the MK all day, personally I'd love to wait in an air-conditioned Victorian Station. As for the glass walls, we know Disney is all about safety and after the Monorail death I'd bet they will go by the NTSB book.

I know where your coming from though, where all the safety stuff sucks the fun out of everything. I remember shorter railing in the parks, no loading gates in the attractions, etc. Some how we all survived, parents controlled their kids and common sense ruled. But, that's not today.
 

Timon

Well-Known Member
The only occasion where anyone within one of the Disney vehicles was the unfortunate accident on July 4th, TIKO.

Did a quick search here's some just for starters:
August 16, 2013 Woman dead after Disney World bus collides with car near Epcot: report
April 1, 2010: A 10-year-old boy was hit and killed by a bus while riding his bike at Disney's Fort Wilderness.
March 23, 2010: Eight people were injured, one seriously, because of a crash between a Disney bus and Waldorf-Astoria bus near Epcot.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Did a quick search here's some just for starters:
August 16, 2013 Woman dead after Disney World bus collides with car near Epcot: report
April 1, 2010: A 10-year-old boy was hit and killed by a bus while riding his bike at Disney's Fort Wilderness.
March 23, 2010: Eight people were injured, one seriously, because of a crash between a Disney bus and Waldorf-Astoria bus near Epcot.
How many of those people that were injured were riding on a Disney bus. That's the part I'm talking about. Many injuries are reported when in an accident, few are legitimate. Deep pocket syndrome. Again I will repeat. We are talking about hassle for Disney here, not something that happens everyday on the highways. I am talking about getting to the scene and getting the people out of the vehicles. What do you think would happen if there was a major fire on one of them? How would they get people out quickly? It can be done with a land vehicle very easily and quickly. Not so much with the highway in the sky.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see them gone, I just think that it is inevitable that it will happen one day. The Monorails are a major part of the identity of both WDW and DL, but, they will never be expanded beyond what currently exists. (that's for the benefit of all those that still harbor that belief.) All the "love" for the buses dropping people off at the entrance of MK is not helping insure that they remain. They are no longer needed to the extent that they once were and that they once were relied upon to carry the masses to the park.
 

Timon

Well-Known Member
Generally per passenger mile monorails are much safer. Buses hit people, cars, trucks, barriers, other buses all the time. Drive back to the Monorail shop, the ground floor on the East side is bus maintenance. Off to the side are the damaged buses waiting for repair. Sad.

Monorails are grade separated so generally no one, car or bus hits a monorail. Technology can make things even safer with active train tracking so the dispatcher knows exactly where every train is. Adding an catwalk between the tracks is not difficult, most new mass transit monorails have these. So you can just walk to safety.
Sao%2520Paulo%2520L%2523%252015%2520-%2520General%252002.jpg


The real transportation problem at Walt Disney World is balance. The large bus terminals at each park are there partly because Disney didn't expand their Monorail system. Disney only bought buses because they are cheap solution to a growing Resort. At the same time Disney should have also added more Hotel boats and Ferry Boats and added an East-West Monorail line. This way if one mode is experiencing a problem the others can take up the slack.

Today - Certain times of the day the road in from of the Contemporary is total gridlock and the water bridge tunnel limits any widening of the road. DTD is also gridlocked with cars and buses the solutions is better boat transportation for the DTD area hotels. Add a monorail to take some pressure off the roads and buses with quick service to Typhoon Lagoon, EPCOT (MK areas), EPCOT Resorts, MGM, Blizzard Beach, Animal Kingdom and the AK Lodge. It's not financially reasonable to run a monorail to every hotel but to have area stations is logical.
 

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