Main Street U.S.A. hub redevelopment at the Magic Kingdom

[Cousin Huet]

Anyone have any fresh pictures to share of the Magic Kingdom? I have some friends going in roughly three weeks for their first trip with the kiddos and was going to give them a heads-up if the construction was still pretty crazy.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Anyone have any fresh pictures to share of the Magic Kingdom? I have some friends going in roughly three weeks for their first trip with the kiddos and was going to give them a heads-up if the construction was still pretty crazy.

It will be pretty crazy throughout all of 2014.

 

[jdmdisney99]

That what the original hub was designed to be, a 16th century treed area enabling the force perspective to work while looking down Main Street.

Really? Then why are all the lamp posts, benches, fences, and snack/service areas all themed to Main Street USA? Fantasyland begins after the buffer that are (or were) the trees of Main Street's hub. Heck, it's even in the thread title...
Main Street U.S.A. hub redevelopment at the Magic Kingdom

 

[flynnibus]

IMO there are enough differences to distinguish the lands, but they're all too rustic. It's the rustic Wild West, the earthy Liberty Square, the forested woods of a storybook. Brown, brown, and brown everywhere.

Even Epcot is getting a brown paint job!

Maybe the current WDI folks grew up in Phoenix... they seem to love brown there too

 

[Gabe1]

Really? Then why are all the lamp posts, benches, fences, and snack/service areas all themed to Main Street USA? Fantasyland begins after the buffer that are (or were) the trees of Main Street's hub. Heck, it's even in the thread title...
Main Street U.S.A. hub redevelopment at the Magic Kingdom

Oy. Back to basics here 101. The hub as originally designed was a shield and the courtyard to the Castle. It kept guests from viewing one land from the other in the distribution point, the Hub. Main Street is a land unto itself thus your benches and lamp posts. The original hub was designed to filter out each land and transition guests to other lands all the while acting as an intricate piece of the design of the forced perspective of the castle as partially viewed from Main Street. It was a tease and not fully discovered until guests made their way off Main Street and though the hub. The hub added mystic to the Castle.

 

[articos]

Why would one assume a 16th Century Castle should have a 20th century courtyard?

That what the original hub was designed to be, a 16th century treed area enabling the force perspective to work while looking down Main Street. It also was the stop for Main Street theming into the 16 Century. 20th century court yard for a 16th Century Castle isn't my idea of cohesive imagineering or theming. The beauty of the imagineering in the Magic Kingdom was no land was ever to run into another themed area. 20th century should be saved for Tomorrowland.

Er, not really. Nothing should be taken too literally when it comes to Magic Kingdom's or Disneyland's design language. It's a fantasyland. A place that we always want to visit but never really existed. Herbie Ryman based the FL castle on a mix of European castles, Spanish, Bavarian, French, Eastern Europe (Poland) and others. The initial Hub as planned by Bill Evans and others was a central gathering spot between lands that was a park transitioning to the more formal spaces of the castle and the moat, with a few set aside areas like the rose garden. It was a nice shady calm place to meet before going off on your adventure in the various lands of the park. It wasn't set in a time frame. The new hub is actually more set in a time frame as it is more formal and sculptural in general, and is a little Versailles-esque as planned, to me. But it's not specific to a time frame or the Castle. And although the trees are (were) an integral part of the scene and framing the Castle making it look taller, the forced perspective is more relating to Main Street, as opposed to the Castle.

As you point out, one of the brilliances of the Magic Kingdom is the fact the lands do run into each other, but there's a transition buffer that can work for each side, which was a trick the design team picked up from the studio backlots. From one angle it looks to blend to one area, but from the other, it works in the opposite manner. The hub was designed as a natural greenspace block to cover the view from Adventureland to Tomorrowland, but it was one of the few areas that was not designed to be a part of the castle or Main Street or a land in particular. That's why it's actually named the Hub. It doesn't detract from the Castle, or Main Street - it works for both. But it's not a themed space. It's a green space. As you get closer to the Castle or towards Tomorrowland or towards Adventureland, you run into themed spaces, on purpose, and those are the transition gateways.

 

[Gabe1]

Er, not really. Nothing should be taken too literally when it comes to Magic Kingdom's or Disneyland's design language. It's a fantasyland. A place that we always want to visit but never really existed. Herbie Ryman based the FL castle on a mix of European castles, Spanish, Bavarian, French, Eastern Europe (Poland) and others. The initial Hub as planned by Bill Evans and others was a central gathering spot between lands that was a park transitioning to the more formal spaces of the castle and the moat, with a few set aside areas like the rose garden. It was a nice shady calm place to meet before going off on your adventure in the various lands of the park. It wasn't set in a time frame. The new hub is actually more set in a time frame as it is more formal and sculptural in general, and is a little Versailles-esque as planned, to me. But it's not specific to a time frame or the Castle. And although the trees are (were) an integral part of the scene and framing the Castle making it look taller, the forced perspective is more relating to Main Street, as opposed to the Castle.

As you point out, one of the brilliances of the Magic Kingdom is the fact the lands do run into each other, but there's a transition buffer that can work for each side, which was a trick the design team picked up from the studio backlots. From one angle it looks to blend to one area, but from the other, it works in the opposite manner. The hub was designed as natural greenspace block to cover the view from Adventureland to Tomorrowland, but it was one of the few areas that was not designed to be a part of the castle or Main Street or a land in particular. That's why it's actually named the Hub. It doesn't detract from the Castle, or Main Street - it works for both. But it's not a themed space. It's a green space. As you get closer to the Castle or towards Tomorrowland or towards Adventureland, you run into themed spaces, on purpose, and those are the transition gateways.

It was a green space. It was imagineered as a green space. Not so much anymore and the green that is needed isn't in the concept drawings. Like Town Square, the twigs they now call trees won't do the job that is needed.

 

[RandySavage]

The hub as originally designed was a shield and the courtyard to the Castle. It kept guests from viewing one land from the other in the distribution point, the Hub. Main Street is a land unto itself thus your benches and lamp posts. The original hub was designed to filter out each land and transition guests to other lands all the while acting as an intricate piece of the design of the forced perspective of the castle as partially viewed from Main Street. It was a tease and not fully discovered until guests made their way off Main Street and though the hub. The hub added mystic to the Castle.

I wholeheartedly agree with the above, and at the same time, @jdmdisney99 is correct: the Hub, formally known as the Central Plaza, was mostly associated with Main Street (until you reach the castle forecourt, north of the circle). The architecture, details, horse-trolley and MS vehicles all speak to this. When the Plaza Swan Boats existed, they were listed under Main Street, USA in the guide-books. The hub was also heavily-associated with Main Street at Disneyland, with Carnation Gardens being at the 10'oclock position.

I think Dan Goozee's beautiful "Plaza Gardens" mural from DLP speaks to the idea behind the Main Street hub.

In the last decade or two, Fantasyland has spread southward into DL's hub (and Tomorrowland moved in from the East), and if the new castle-inspired architectural elements (the four towers) make it into this new MK Hub, more of it will feel associated with Fantasyland going forward. I don't have a problem with that kind of theme annexation - as articos describes, it is a transition area.

Whether Main Street or Fantasyland or neither, it's mostly semantics. What really matters to me are the big shady trees (or now lack thereof) and hopefully once everything is planted, new tree growth will eventually restore the "stage curtain" effect in some way and give some relief from the sun.

 

[articos]

It was a green space. It was imagineered as a green space. Not so much anymore and the green that is needed isn't in the concept drawings. Like Town Square, the twigs they now call trees won't do the job that is needed.

Give it a chance. I think most will be pleasantly surprised with the end result of this project.

 

[TP2000]

The architecture, details, horse-trolley and MS vehicles all speak to this. When the Plaza Swan Boats existed, they were listed under Main Street, USA in the guide-books. The hub was also heavily-associated with Main Street at Disneyland, with Carnation Gardens being at the 10'oclock position.

Carnation Plaza Gardens did have a Main Street feel to it when it existed, although it was set back quite aways across the moat and behind trees and landscaping. But to get to that at the 10 o'clock position on the Hub you first had to pass entry portals that were (and still are) far more prominent than Carnation Plaza Gardens ever was. (Carnation was the corporate sponsor of the ice cream stand there, "Plaza Gardens" was the actual title without the corporate plug).

But to get there first you have to pass the Adventureland entrance, and I know of no Midwestern town that had elephant tusks and flaming tiki torches and tribal masks and thatched roofs in the business district. Found at the 7 o'clock position...

Next up was/is an Oregon Territory fort of the 1800's wild frontier, with elegant swans in the moat just for fun (that would have been slaughtered within minutes for a frontier feast in 1850). At the 9 o'clock position...

And then there's that pesky mountain backdrop, a 160 foot tall version of the Swiss Matterhorn that Walt installed in '59 towering over everything at the 2 o'clock position. Meanwhile, back on the ground, was the Monsanto House Of The Future that Walt installed in '57 and that sat just a few feet off the Hub and directly across from the Castle.

At the 3 o'clock position from 1957 to 1967 and the closest non-Main Street thing to the Hub...

My point? The Central Plaza "Hub" has always been a billboard gateway to whatever themed land lies just beyond.

Walt and his team did a fine job placing Victorian themed benches and lampposts and popcorn carts in the area as it was a physical extension of Main Street USA. Not to mention the early 20th century streetcars, jitneys and fire trucks that load/unload all day long right in front of the fantasy castle. It's the Hub, so anything can happen!

But I caution people from trying to rein in what the Hub is with too tight a leash, or criticize current Imagineers for not following a strict "Midwest Town Circa 1905" plotline for that space.

The Hub is a mish-mash, a grand traffic circle, and an open doorway to many themes and stories. This is most obvious at Disneyland where Walt and his hand picked Imagineers cultivated that space for its first 20 years. But it's a similar thing at the other Disneyland clones around the world.

I just hope this MyMagic+ rehab of Magic Kingdom's Hub isn't as shadeless as the concept art appears. There's the real sin committed in any park's Hub; not enough shade and benches.

 

[Gabe1]

Give it a chance. I think most will be pleasantly surprised with the end result of this project.

Like I said in a previous post, my comments are from concept drawings at first blush and that it wouldn't be ugly.
My fears are not that it won't be pretty, more function as it needs to beyond walk ability and entertainment. Maybe the concept drawings are incorrect and the trees planted will be mature trees to transition from all lands as intended and produce the forced prospective necessary for the castle. Maybe. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised that the imagineers don't mess up the hub to the point where I can view one land to the other and that the Hub is indeed themed correctly to be before the 16th century castle icon. Fingers Crossed. Time will tell.

 

[NormC]

It was never themed as a 16th century courtyard as stated above by Articos so why should they do so now? It was always a transition area between lands not themed to any one land. Smooth out the abruptness of leaving one land and entering another. I think it will be a much needed improvement in both traffic flow and functionality and hopefully there will still be enough green space and trees to avoid the parking lot feel.

 

[Gabe1]

It was never themed as a 16th century courtyard as stated above by Articos so why should they do so now? It was always a transition area between lands not themed to any one land. Smooth out the abruptness of leaving one land and entering another. I think it will be a much needed improvement in both traffic flow and functionality and hopefully there will still be enough green space and trees to avoid the parking lot feel.

Blah.

I can't believe you are still missing the point I am making. I will try one more time to and then I give up.
It needs to be a courtyard that has multiple purposes. The Castle is the icon of the MK, it needs a courtyard that blends and transitions well with the 16th century castle. The original hub with the cherry trees and concrete planters, wrought iron rails did just that. It also needs to blend well with the turn into approximately the beginning of the 20th century Main Street. Sticking a modern 20th century hub between 1890-1910 Main Street and the 16th century castle would not be a good transition. The Hub as imagineered when they were designing the MK did just that, it used elements that worked for both the castle and Main Street all while the trees produced the Forced Perspective view while coming down Main Street along with the Hub screening so guests could not view other lands and periods of time through the Hub area, it transitioned the guest.

By how the tree's and landscaping filtered out the lands as the MK was designed

and you see how the old world walls of the planters blend with the castle and the wrought iron railing typical of both the castle and early 20th century.

castle photo's belong to @ExtinctJenn / http://extinctdisney.com/


to the concept,

it appears you will be able to view the majority of lands throughout as the majority of the landscaping appears in concept to be tiny. I'm not seeing the transition from turn of the century into the 20th to a hub that complements the era of the castle. More missmosh. I hope when the imagineers implement the concept most of this is corrected. As I said, fingers crossed.

My interpretation of the the concept drawings is you will be able to view straight across from Tomorrowland into Adventureland and Liberty Square along with a clear shot from the train station to the castle doors. Those 4 planters and trees shorter than the lamp posts I'm not guessing if implemented as drawn will screen anything and guests will see every land from the hub that should be screened and filtered by trees. I'm not seeing anything that blends and transitions early 20th turn of the century to 16th century castle like it once did. The hub appears at first blush to be mostly concrete. It looks like an atmosphere that will be nasty hot and from May through October which should make even more guests go down during the 3 O'Clock parade than already do.

 

[articos]

Blah.

I can't believe you are still missing the point I am making. I will try one more time to and then I give up.
It needs to be a courtyard that has multiple purposes. The Castle is the icon of the MK, it needs a courtyard that blends and transitions well with the 16th century castle. The original hub with the cherry trees and concrete planters, wrought iron rails did just that. It also needs to blend well with the turn into approximately the beginning of the 20th century Main Street. Sticking a modern 20th century hub between 1890-1910 Main Street and the 16th century castle would not be a good transition. The Hub as imagineered when they were designing the MK did just that, it used elements that worked for both the castle and Main Street all while the trees produced the Forced Perspective view while coming down Main Street along with the Hub screening so guests could not view other lands and periods of time through the Hub area, it transitioned the guest.

By how the tree's and landscaping filtered out the lands as the MK was designed

and you see how the old world walls of the planters blend with the castle and the wrought iron railing typical of both the castle and early 20th century.

castle photo's belong to @ExtinctJenn / http://extinctdisney.com/


to the concept,

it appears you will be able to view the majority of lands throughout as the majority of the landscaping appears in concept to be tiny. I'm not seeing the transition from turn of the century into the 20th to a hub that complements the era of the castle. More missmosh. I hope when the imagineers implement the concept most of this is corrected. As I said, fingers crossed.

My interpretation of the the concept drawings is you will be able to view straight across from Tomorrowland into Adventureland and Liberty Square along with a clear shot from the train station to the castle doors. Those 4 planters and trees shorter than the lamp posts I'm not guessing if implemented as drawn will screen anything and guests will see every land from the hub that should be screened and filtered by trees. I'm not seeing anything that blends and transitions early 20th turn of the century to 16th century castle like it once did. The hub appears at first blush to be mostly concrete. It looks like an atmosphere that will be nasty hot and from May through October which should make even more guests go down during the 3 O'Clock parade than already do.

The trees around the outer ring will (should) be taller again, and will help to block the views straight across. There are also clusters of trees and planting surrounding certain areas: the entry bridge into Adventureland, and the gateway over into Tomorrowland both have specific planting surrounding.The center of the hub will be lower plants in more structured planters with smaller trees to allow for sight lines within the hub itself. Once finished it will feel more open, but also much more park-like with a lot more green and flowers again.

Also, everyone does need to realize you are right with respect to the walls and the railings - they were specifically dressed to resemble the castle stone work, so it would blend towards the castle if looking in that direction, but it was also dressed to resemble any potential city park when looking back towards Main Street. Like I mentioned, an old studio backlot trick that takes elements from all environments while not actually making itself a part of either, while serving a purpose of just being greenspace. Also want to point out that people toured the park differently in those days: slower, and enjoying their surroundings more.

 

[Captain Chaos]

The trees around the outer ring will be taller again, and will help to block the views straight across. There are also clusters of trees and planting surrounding certain areas: the entry bridge into Adventureland, and the gateway over into Tormorrowland both have specific planting surrounding.The center of the hub will be lower plants in more structured planters with smaller trees to allow for sight lines within the hub itself. Once finished it will feel more open, but also much more park-like with a lot more green and flowers again.

Call me crazy, but I think I like the sound of that...

 

[NormC]

Blah, I didn't miss your point. I can't believe you missed my point Gabe. Your point is you want it to be something it never was. You are entitled to your wishes. My point is that it was never designed that way to begin with. It was called Central Plaza and was a transition area between lands NOT the Castle's courtyard. Yes it had railing and stonework that worked with the castle but it also worked with Main Street if you looked the other way as Articos has pointed out. I am hoping for the best. Time will tell.

 

[Gabe1]

The trees around the outer ring will (should) be taller again, and will help to block the views straight across. There are also clusters of trees and planting surrounding certain areas: the entry bridge into Adventureland, and the gateway over into Tormorrowland both have specific planting surrounding.The center of the hub will be lower plants in more structured planters with smaller trees to allow for sight lines within the hub itself. Once finished it will feel more open, but also much more park-like with a lot more green and flowers again.

Also, everyone does need to realize you are right with respect to the walls and the railings - they were specifically dressed to resemble the castle stone work, so it would blend towards the castle if looking in that direction, but it was also dressed to resemble any potential city park when looking back towards Main Street. Like I mentioned, an old studio backlot trick that takes elements from all environments while not actually making itself a part of either, while serving a purpose of just being greenspace. Also want to point out that people toured the park differently in those days: slower, and enjoying their surroundings more.

I do not hold the same hope for large trees to block the various lands but I'd be pleasantly surprised if your prediction comes true. All of these trees are drawn small in the concept drawings. There are larger trees that would do the job drawn into the concept drawings near the castle unlike the smaller ones in the paths to the lands. I'm looking at the scale of the trees in comparison to the height of the lamp posts. What I am finding comical is the shade/shadows drawn into the concept drawings. No freak'n way. The shadows of the humans are exaggerated in the same way. I see the trees Disney is planting on Main Street and What they removed in Town Square and replaced with 2 inch trunk trees in the square. I'm anticipating stick trees and likely infant fruit type tree/bushes in the planters of the hub. Greenery but dwarfed and likely some pretty flowers, not anticipating much shade or screening.

Thanks for acknowledging the purposeful theming . I don't believe many notice the deliberate tie in theming Disney did with the hub or its multiple purposes. It was excellent imagineering that I mourn the loss of. I have great appreciation for good theming by the imagineers when they do it right. Sunset was my favorite expansion despite Rock'ns misstep. I love the Everest theming and the area that surrounds it and all the theming in the queue. When Disney reverses good imagineering it obviously bothers me more than it does the current Disney masterminds. When I first saw what the current imagineers did to the beautiful fountain sitting before Dinosaur I felt badly. Don't even know why they bothered to leave water in that re-work. The monuments are like tombstones to yesteryear at Epcots entrance, the flower pots that were once pretty fountains don't do much for me either. Bet you can guess my feelings about the Hat in the Studios over the view of the Theater. I'm from the lot of guests that appreciates all the surroundings in WDW both in and out of the parks. I'd love a crack at imagineering the TTC, Dear Lord that needs some TLC.

I do acknowledge there are many that tour the parks differently, commando style and could care less about the visuals of the parks. Most would be just as happy with the aesthetics of Six Flags and tour the parks in the same manner. Me, I will genuinely miss looking down Main Street at the castle peeking out from behind the trees waiting for me to walk through the Hub as it magically appeared. I have many photos of my young children in the hub under the cherry trees in full bloom eating a Mickey Bar in the shade. My own magical moments.

 

[Goofnut1980]

We need a Scott Keating photo here... lol.. a nice overview of what it looks like right now

 

[devoy1701]

The reality is TDO simply does not care. Their heads are so far up their own behinds that asking for advice from tiny little DL would never happen (MK is the most visited park in the world, right? ) It's a shame, because like so many other things they used to be great at, Disney was known for how efficiently and effectively they could manage crowds. This obviously is no longer the case. Guests are put into this very dangerous free-for-all on a regular basis, long after the big shots leave their offices at 5pm.

In addition, if DL's crowd control plan in involves spending one penny more for labor than what the MK's current plan requires, it simply will not happen. That is just the way TDO works.

As another poster mentioned, I'm sure TDO hopes with the hub expansion plans they can eliminate some of PAC labor, but I think that's wishful thinking.

That's a very common response and I've received it first hand on several occasions. "Disneyland doesn't have the crowds we do..."

 

[Otamin]

The trees around the outer ring will (should) be taller again, and will help to block the views straight across. There are also clusters of trees and planting surrounding certain areas: the entry bridge into Adventureland, and the gateway over into Tomorrowland both have specific planting surrounding.The center of the hub will be lower plants in more structured planters with smaller trees to allow for sight lines within the hub itself. Once finished it will feel more open, but also much more park-like with a lot more green and flowers again.

Also, everyone does need to realize you are right with respect to the walls and the railings - they were specifically dressed to resemble the castle stone work, so it would blend towards the castle if looking in that direction, but it was also dressed to resemble any potential city park when looking back towards Main Street. Like I mentioned, an old studio backlot trick that takes elements from all environments while not actually making itself a part of either, while serving a purpose of just being greenspace. Also want to point out that people toured the park differently in those days: slower, and enjoying their surroundings more.

The hub itself will be nice, but I'm still bummed it'll still look odd looking towards the castle from Main Street.

Also slightly off-topic, but will the trees in NFL grow much bigger than they currently are? I can only assume they'll use similar trees in the hub, so I'm curious...