Kevin Yee's latest article on RFID/MagicBands

[flynnibus]

@KevinYee has a piece published on miceage today talking about Magicband and the technology involved. Link

Kevin, I have to say - have you been living under a rock for the last year with regard to this stuff? This article is atrocious.

It starts off with...

All of a sudden last week, based on some first-hand reports, there was reason to suspect that the Disney MagicBands do, after all, contain the capability to be read at a distance

All of a sudden? It's been known for over a year, since the FCC filing (discussed here http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/disney’s-rfid-magic-band-arrives-on-the-fcc.852492/ ) that the magic band has two RFID chips AND a 2.4GHz radio that transmits.

Second, Disney has long since acknowledged the presence of 'Long Range Readers' - which is what the 2.4GHz radio transmits to.

Then we have have 'proof' this reading from a distance happens. Uhh.. yeah.. its been there all along. It's covered in the technical stuff, and has been rumored from the start for things like the attractions that interact with you (IASW dolls and signs remember??)

The question has always been to what kind of resolution and what interest Disney has with the long range reading - not if it ever existed. It's the exact scenario Iger countered in his letter saying they could opt out of Bands and use the RFID enabled card only - which does NOT have the 2.4GHz radio and hence, no long range reader support.

The implication is that the bands CAN be read at a distance, without needing the customer to hold it less than an inch from the reader. That seems counter-intuitive. If the bands are capable of that all along, why bother having them need to touch the scanners directly for FASTPASS+ and for room charges?

Counter-Intuitive? No -- it makes perfect sense. Different applications have different needs. That's why the band has 3 different things in it - and not just one. You don't broadcast sensitive info and require greater access for that.

When the news broke a few years ago that Disney World was moving to a system involving RFID chips, there was a lot of speculation about privacy. Many of those who fretted the most about being tracked were pooh-poohed as the “tinfoil hat” types, sensing conspiracies when none were present. RFID-capable keycards and annual pass cards – sized and shaped just like credit cards – did not seem to present any opportunity for Disney to track users unless they actively swiped their cards. The RFID chip was just too passive; it couldn’t transmit. The debate about privacy then seemed to just die out many months ago, as if the matter were decided: Disney could only track you if you swiped.

If that is what you took away from those discussions - the fault is on YOU Kevin. Those are the conclusions people had and knew about. You've either misunderstood, or miscontrued the facts to serve a predisposed conclusion.

The technical ERRORs in the article continue on and on..

We know Disney is using a battery-assisted 2.4Gz RFID tag, andthere exists a similar one on the market that can be read from 30 feet away.

UGH.. did you just take the facts throw them in a blender and see what came out? It's not a 2.4GHz RFID tag... there are two RFID tags in them, one HF (13.56MHz) and one UHF (433MHz) tag. The 2.4GHz reference is to the radio in the device intended to broadcast to the 'wireless infrastructure'. The two RFID tags are passive tags that need irradiating to function.

The clues seem to be stacking up

Really??? Welcome to 12 months ago Kevin.

Yes the magicband has long range capabilities - the question has always been what is the intent for those. Yes, the magicband has near field capabilities (the HF tag) - it's what's been used for door locks, and presumably the FP+ and tap to pay systems. The passive UHF tag has a longer range in theory than the HF tag and it's use is unknown.

The photopass system could be using either the 2.4GHz radio or the UHF tag.

It's not known yet if the ticket only or KTTW cards have the UHF chip or not.

I speculate that the photopass stuff works only with the 2.4GHz radio - because it doesn't require an active reader, would be more flexible in attractions (greater distance pickup) and gives more reason to upsell to the bands.

Disney's intentions with the long range readers are not verified - there are LOTS of technical capabilities depending on what their intentions are. They could be real-time only, they could log it all, they could use it for simple crowd management, they could create audit logs of triangulation of every guest at various points throughout their entire stay. Some of these are more realistic than others - it's all down to the motivations and how much effort one is willing to invest.

 

[disney4life2008]

What I find troubling is the photopass of rides that one did not give permission for. dare I tell my son not to ride space mountain again and I get home and see a photo of him lol

 

[Bairstow]

What I find troubling is the photopass of rides that one did not give permission for. dare I tell my son not to ride space mountain again and I get home and see a photo of him lol

Just think of all the security photos you didn't give explicit permission for.

 

[draybook]

Just think of all the security photos you didn't give explicit permission for.

I guess next time I visit I'll make sure to be picking my nose the whole time. Might as well give them something to look at......

 

[disney4life2008]

Just think of all the security photos you didn't give explicit permission for.

lol. Big brother is alive and well.

 

[RandomPrincess]

What I find troubling is the photopass of rides that one did not give permission for. dare I tell my son not to ride space mountain again and I get home and see a photo of him lol

I wonder if this is why were had multiples of each picture from the rides on our PP account? I stopped at each ride and had it added to our card, no one told me it was unnecessary. As they take your picture on the ride they would have to send the picture straight to your band as you were riding. Cool if you ask me.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

I wonder if this is why were had multiples of each picture from the rides on our PP account? I stopped at each ride and had it added to our card, no one told me it was unnecessary. As they take your picture on the ride they would have to send the picture straight to your band as you were riding. Cool if you ask me.

It is cool, but it still doesn't really justify why do it.

Its sort of like Amazon's supposedly future drone delivery system. Yeah, its cool that we could conceivably do that, but is it really necessary? Sort of sums up the whole Magic Band initiative. Yeah, its neat in a techno-big-brother sort of way, but just because its neat doesn't necessarily mean we should do it.

 

[flynnibus]

Its sort of like Amazon's supposedly future drone delivery system. Yeah, its cool that we could conceivably do that, but is it really necessary?

That whole thing is a publicity gag.

 

[kap91]

It is cool, but it still doesn't really justify why do it.

Its sort of like Amazon's supposedly future drone delivery system. Yeah, its cool that we could conceivably do that, but is it really necessary? Sort of sums up the whole Magic Band initiative. Yeah, its neat in a techno-big-brother sort of way, but just because its neat doesn't necessarily mean we should do it.

It's not really necessary to have a monorail run through a hotel either...you do it precisely because it's cool and unnecessary. Only real question is is it worth $1billion?

 

[ford91exploder]

@KevinYee has a piece published on miceage today talking about Magicband and the technology involved. Link

Kevin, I have to say - have you been living under a rock for the last year with regard to this stuff? This article is atrocious.

It starts off with...


All of a sudden? It's been known for over a year, since the FCC filing (discussed here http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/disney’s-rfid-magic-band-arrives-on-the-fcc.852492/ ) that the magic band has two RFID chips AND a 2.4GHz radio that transmits.

Second, Disney has long since acknowledged the presence of 'Long Range Readers' - which is what the 2.4GHz radio transmits to.

Then we have have 'proof' this reading from a distance happens. Uhh.. yeah.. its been there all along. It's covered in the technical stuff, and has been rumored from the start for things like the attractions that interact with you (IASW dolls and signs remember??)

The question has always been to what kind of resolution and what interest Disney has with the long range reading - not if it ever existed. It's the exact scenario Iger countered in his letter saying they could opt out of Bands and use the RFID enabled card only - which does NOT have the 2.4GHz radio and hence, no long range reader support.



Counter-Intuitive? No -- it makes perfect sense. Different applications have different needs. That's why the band has 3 different things in it - and not just one. You don't broadcast sensitive info and require greater access for that.



If that is what you took away from those discussions - the fault is on YOU Kevin. Those are the conclusions people had and knew about. You've either misunderstood, or miscontrued the facts to serve a predisposed conclusion.

The technical ERRORs in the article continue on and on..



UGH.. did you just take the facts throw them in a blender and see what came out? It's not a 2.4GHz RFID tag... there are two RFID tags in them, one HF (13.56MHz) and one UHF (433MHz) tag. The 2.4GHz reference is to the radio in the device intended to broadcast to the 'wireless infrastructure'. The two RFID tags are passive tags that need irradiating to function.



Really??? Welcome to 12 months ago Kevin.

Yes the magicband has long range capabilities - the question has always been what is the intent for those. Yes, the magicband has near field capabilities (the HF tag) - it's what's been used for door locks, and presumably the FP+ and tap to pay systems. The passive UHF tag has a longer range in theory than the HF tag and it's use is unknown.

The photopass system could be using either the 2.4GHz radio or the UHF tag.

It's not known yet if the ticket only or KTTW cards have the UHF chip or not.

I speculate that the photopass stuff works only with the 2.4GHz radio - because it doesn't require an active reader, would be more flexible in attractions (greater distance pickup) and gives more reason to upsell to the bands.

Disney's intentions with the long range readers are not verified - there are LOTS of technical capabilities depending on what their intentions are. They could be real-time only, they could log it all, they could use it for simple crowd management, they could create audit logs of triangulation of every guest at various points throughout their entire stay. Some of these are more realistic than others - it's all down to the motivations and how much effort one is willing to invest.

We in the technolgy field assume way too much about peoples knowledge of technology, We really do not realize that most people don't track where technology is going. For most people it's a 'This is Cool' experience but they have no idea how the tech actually WORKS.

Those of us who know what long range RFID meant immediately figured out that Disney was going to use this as a tracking device. Now we have guests being creeped out by PP pictures being associated to them without their knowledge.

I believe people have a visceral dislike of being watched without their knowledge and it took Disney hitting them with the 'Cluebat' to wake some of them up.

 

[alissafalco]

I guess someone didn't do their homework before publishing.

 

[Monty]

Mr. Yee either hasn't been paying attention, is very forgetful or is trying to stir up the hornets' nest again.

The bands were known to have this tech right from the FCC filing that was posted on nearly every Disney-related site. The "Search & Seizure" straw horse has been beaten to death, the Constitution protects you from Government intrusions, not those by a private sector organization.

The only private information involved is as safe as it ever was.

 

[Since1976]

Count me among the Rip Van Winkles who didn't know about this aspect of the bands, and I come here almost every day. So, I'm not surprised that another techno-layman like Kevin Yee would not have been aware. I compare this to people troubled by the poisonous aspects of dihydrogen monoxide (Pssst! It's water!)

I think that the Bands have been a real head-scratcher for many, and with the up-close scanning feature of the Bands (FastPass+, park entry, etc) being promoted most prominently, few had any idea of the full scope of the Bands' reach. Even the news articles which sprung up when Congressman What's-His-Name challenged the idea didn't seem to have a clue about how the Bands worked.

Am I troubled by this? Not really. The Bands are voluntary, and if you didn't think Disney was going to use them to track your activities around the park you've been kidding yourself.

 

[WDWDad13]

of course they have to read at long distances... how else were they going to have interactions with the characters that talk or attractions that display or say your name.... no one is going to tap their band on mickey's forehead so he knows who they are

lots of benefits to this as well...crowd management/monitoring levels in certain sections of the park, etc.

 

[Ralphlaw]

I assume Pal Mickey had similar technology. I also don't think that most people care if they're being tracked. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of having my wanderings used for some sort of marketing study, but on the list of things that irritate me, it's way down. Now, if I could get rid of Robocalls from politicians, tax increases, phone company phone trees, a never ending list of internet passwords that constantly change, absent employees, rude government workers, and a really lousy TTA narration, that would be far higher on my list of things that I would like to fix.

 

[Texas84]

How does your food find you at BoG? Is that a long-range reader?

 

[flynnibus]

How does your food find you at BoG? Is that a long-range reader?

There are readers and an electronics package mounted on the underside of the table. Presumably the rose is read by that package (less than 1m distance needed) and the package communicates wirelessly to the backend and reports that your rose is at 'table 13' or something.

Instead of trying to locate the rose as somewhere in a giant room, it simply knows where each table is, and each table detects if a rose is nearby.

 

[Texas84]

There are readers and an electronics package mounted on the underside of the table. Presumably the rose is read by that package (less than 1m distance needed) and the package communicates wirelessly to the backend and reports that your rose is at 'table 13' or something.

Instead of trying to locate the rose as somewhere in a giant room, it simply knows where each table is, and each table detects if a rose is nearby.

Except none of us got roses and it was self-seating for lunch. We had three different tickets and they found all of us. Our MBs were scanned before ordering. Maybe the electronics under the table reads the MB? Then some minimal distance reading must be involved there. My Dad actually tracked down a CM to ask how that was done and the CM just said "Magic."

 

[flynnibus]

Except none of us got roses and it was self-seating for lunch. We had three different tickets and they found all of us. Our MBs were scanned before ordering. Maybe the electronics under the table reads the MB? Then some minimal distance reading must be involved there. My Dad actually tracked down a CM to ask how that was done and the CM just said "Magic."

The rose and MB would just be interchangeable in that model.

You basically have two concepts for locating a tag...
a 'proximity' model - a localized reader says 'tag ACB is near me' and you know where that reader is..
or
a triangulation model - where multiple readers simultaneously locates a tag and they estimate a physical location.

The latter could be done with the 2.4GHz radio in the MagicBand, but since we know they have electronics packages on the tables.. it's more likely they are using the 'proximity' model.

The UHF technology in the RFID tag in the magicband could easily be designed to be read at 1m or so.. which is what you'd want in this application.

 

[danlb_2000]

Mr. Yee either hasn't been paying attention, is very forgetful or is trying to stir up the hornets' nest again.

The bands were known to have this tech right from the FCC filing that was posted on nearly every Disney-related site. The "Search & Seizure" straw horse has been beaten to death, the Constitution protects you from Government intrusions, not those by a private sector organization.

The only private information involved is as safe as it ever was.

I found the battery part particularly amusing since the cover letter of the FCC filing clearly says "battery". You don't need to know anything about technology to catch that one.