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Ivanka's New Title

Discussion in 'Politics and Social Issues' started by 21stamps, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. 21stamps

    21stamps Well-Known Member Original Poster

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    Ok, so- here's what we know-

    A man made horrible comments about women in a private conversation with another man.

    Because of this, which we all know is not unheard of, even if such things should never be said..

    As a result, The following should happen-
    A daughter should cut ties with her father.

    Really?

    I mean seriously. Is that what you want her to do? Is that what you would do?
    If it was your father, you know him, you know that he isn't misogynistic, but he may have made some horrible comments with a buddy..that then aired publicly..
    You would turn against your father?
     
  2. 21stamps

    21stamps Well-Known Member Original Poster

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    Here is her exact comment -

    "My father’s comments were clearly inappropriate and offensive, and I’m glad that he acknowledged this fact with an immediate apology to my family and the American people.”

    What else should she have said/done?
     
  3. disneygeek90

    disneygeek90 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, probably. Just because they're blood doesn't mean you have to forgive them for being horrible human beings. Blood is different than family.
     
  4. disneygeek90

    disneygeek90 Well-Known Member

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    The psychology major in my finds it interesting that instead of just apologizing or condemning what happened, she still turns it into a positive for her father. That we're somehow supposed to be okay with an acknowledgement.
     
  5. 21stamps

    21stamps Well-Known Member Original Poster

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    She said that he acknowledged he was wrong..and she also acknowledged that he was in the wrong.
    If I do/say something bad, I issue an apology, and acknowledge that I was wrong.

    I'm asking in all seriousness, what did you want her to say or do?
     
  6. 21stamps

    21stamps Well-Known Member Original Poster

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    Oops. Sorry just read this one after posting my last comment.

    What if he isn't a horrible human being?

    What if the man she know isn't any of those things that all of us, who do not personally know him, are labeling him to be?

    I'm not excusing men, but we all know that plenty of men have said horrible and disgusting things in conversations about women. It's not ok.. but that doesn't mean that they are actually horrible humans. If anything, his company and his daughter show that he is not a misogynist.
     
  7. disneygeek90

    disneygeek90 Well-Known Member

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    I mean at the end of the day, unless she cuts off her father completely (which would never happen with this group), she should have said something to the tune that she was disgusted and will be having a serious conversation with him about how and why this isn't something that should ever continue. Even if it was half hearted it would have meant more than her little acknowledgment.

    I know he's a bad person. Good people don't brag about rubbing on other's parts, and being able to do so because they're famous. And saying that all men say this is the same feeding attitude that starts all the way down to "boys will be boys." No. I refuse to accept that ever.
     
  8. 21stamps

    21stamps Well-Known Member Original Poster

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    She said "clearly inappropriate and offensive". I don't know in how much more detail she could have gone, or why she would go into more detail. I'm sure it was horrible for her to hear, probably worse for her than it was for us.

    I never said that all men say such things.. what I said is "plenty of men", because accepting it or not, we all know that it exists. We shouldn't accept it as ok, it's not- it's disgusting.. but we have to accept that it exists, if not- we're all just in denial.

    If you were at a bar with a few male friends, and they made sexual comments about a woman at the bar, or a man at the bar.. would you unfriend them? I've been in both situations. I chastise them, but I don't unfriend them, because I know they aren't horrible people.

    I don't know how else to explain it.. I agree that we shouldn't exuse the "boys will be boys" attitude, but it doesn't mean we hate them for a few comments... how they live their life will show if they are truly misogynistic or not.
    If we know they aren't- we stay friendly, after a verbal lashing.
     
  9. disneygeek90

    disneygeek90 Well-Known Member

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    I choose to be friends with people that don't say horrible and offensive things about other people. Perhaps not everyone has that standard.
     
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  10. 21stamps

    21stamps Well-Known Member Original Poster

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    Really, you have never been at a bar/nightclub in your 20s and overheard a male friend say something inappropriate about a female or male? Honestly?

    Maybe I lived in SoFla too long and visited Key West too regularly. Perhaps that's it.., but I don't know many people who could answer "No" to that question truthfully.
     
  11. disneygeek90

    disneygeek90 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, not really. Straight men annoy the crap out of me, so I don't hang out with them often. But making a dirty comment about how attractive someone is etc is a little different than alluding to rape and sexual harassment.
     
  12. 21stamps

    21stamps Well-Known Member Original Poster

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    I wasn't talking about rape. I was talking about inappropriate and degrading comments.

    Sorry, those comments are not exclusive to straight men.. not at all. I would hope that even @BuddyThomas or @Tony the Tigger could admit to that.. these two strongly disagree with my politics, but you can't be in a night club/bar regularly when in your 20s and say that you've never heard it. (General "you")

    My gay male friends, straight male friends- most of them have made what you could label as derogatory comments at some point.


    But, I really think it's sad that "straight men annoy the crap out of you". Believe it or not- all men are different. Being straight shouldn't equal annoying. Isn't that the kind of labeling that shouldn't exist?
     
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  13. disneygeek90

    disneygeek90 Well-Known Member

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    I guess I was referencing more in sexual/rape comments toward women, but sure, I know other's aren't exempt either.

    I apologize as I didn't mean to label the entire group. I don't think all straight men are bad. I just don't hang out with many of them in social situations for an extended period of time. Sexual/flirty comments toward others (while still not exactly polite, respectable etc) are still usually not at the level of Trumps comments about literally grabbing someone in a very private area because he thinks he can do whatever he wants with no repercussions.

    And if they are, they sure as heck aren't president, supposedly setting the example for the rest of the country/world.
     
  14. 21stamps

    21stamps Well-Known Member Original Poster

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    I am not defending his comments in the slightest bit. They were horrible, disgusting, despicable comments.

    I was not a Trump fan during his campaign.. I have said that repeatedly.. I voted for him because he was the better option for my political leanings.. that's all. I will not defend most of what he did, because trust me- it disgusts me as well. I will support his as my president though, I want the best for this country., even under obama- I did not actively wish for him to fail, and I despised his politics..but wishing for the the president to fail is wishing for this country to fail. So, I accepted the election results and wished the best for Obama.

    I am an Ivanka fan, have been for years.. and I can't stand the bashing and claims of her now "not being a strong women" "not using her influence" etc etc. I don't think they are accurate or deserving.

    I am tired of women attacking other women, just because their political leanings are different.
     
  15. Tony the Tigger

    Tony the Tigger Well-Known Member

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    I think there is a generational factor here. People my age grew up hearing very different things vs. what people disneygeek's age grew up hearing. Many things that are unacceptable to say in public today were commonplace when I was a kid. I was struck by this recently while watching "One Day At A Time" reruns on logo. Societal attitudes shift - primarily it's been for the better, but I allow a little leeway for older folks who have a completely different paradigm regarding those attitudes.

    I'm getting old enough now (46) that society has less effect on me.

    Re: Trump: he disgusts me to no end. I'll never respect that mess.
     
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  16. disneygeek90

    disneygeek90 Well-Known Member

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    And that's probably true, too. More and more of my generation is even condemning people using words such as “retarded” or “gay” offensively, let alone horrible rape-y comments. If I hear people say retarded (yes.... even my friends) I'll ask them not to use that word in that context.

    I guess that’s the good part, that slowly but surely, society is realizing that comments and attitudes like these aren’t okay. Somehow the older rich men still think they’re exempt from having to act like decent human beings, but…
     
  17. 21stamps

    21stamps Well-Known Member Original Poster

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    I agree, and most of it has been for the better. But I don't know, maybe sexual comments, made from one friend to another, no longer exist with college age to 20somethings..if so- great!

    Ok wait, I'm 39, and neither myself or anyone I know uses those phrases. I think that part of society is much older now.

    Just to be clear, I have never once said that my male friends made "rapey comments" I said that I have overheard -degrading sexual comments while out with my friends. No, my male friends weren't saints in our 20s..but they weren't bad people either. I'm glad that you've never overheard a conversation where two people you know were talking about another woman or man in a sexual way. I'd love it if those types of comments/conversations just completely stopped.

    I'm not being rude here- but please, again with the generalizations! First "straight men", now "rich older men". You can't lump everyone together like that! Please! I think ALL of us need to stop with these gross exaggerations.. I don't care who the president is.. We are still Us. There's no reason to deteriorate to the point of labeling people in that way. It is no better than the crazy redneck Trump fans who do it.

    I've had construction workers make comments to me, I've been on a run and had a white guy in a truck yell something, And an African American guy in a car.. I've had Latin guys do the when passing them on a sidewalk..and Israeli guys..and Brits..and South Africans...and the db 50something sitting at a bar flaunting his money.:

    It's all inappropriate.
    It shouldn't be done to women, period.
    But- It's not exclusive to one group.
     
  18. disneygeek90

    disneygeek90 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say your friends made rapey comments. I meant that Trump made rapey comments.

    I think that’s the disconnect. Some of your friends have made derogatory or sexual comments towards others. Fine. This is not in the same stratosphere as Trump’s serious rape and harassment comments, as our “image” of a president.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  19. BuddyThomas

    BuddyThomas Well-Known Member

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    I might disagree with your politics, but that doesn't mean I disagree with you personally. As I have said before, we all love Disney or we would not be here. And honestly, if that is the connecting thread, how bad can we all be? Except for the cheapskates on the tipping thread. They are pretty bad. ;)
     
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  20. BuddyThomas

    BuddyThomas Well-Known Member

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    I think this pretty much says it all (PS - several four letter words in case that's not something you care for):
     
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