If monorail expansion is too expensive, why not peoplemover?

jwm

New Member
Well a better infrastructure would allow the park to expand. Upgrading the transportation to be more efficient would mean a lower cost to operate.[/FONT][/SIZE]



Well this is basically what a PRT system would add and how it would constructed. They do not run on fossil fuels, they are EVs, but how they run is the same. All you need for s PRT system is just asphalt and bumpers along the sides. The system's biggest advantage is that it is on demand and customized to the guest. Also this system can handle different sized vehicles if needed.

As for the bus system, they should be switched out to be hybrids that can run on bio-diesel with solar panels on top and regeneration brakes. A vehicle with that many next generation technology can be subsidized by the manufacturer of the bus, the solar panels, the brakes, and also the USDOT. Disney can easily make the case that with the amount of guests that visit, the advertising would pay for itself when guests request these technologies in their personal vehicles and also from their local public transit agencies.





I think that we both agree that a multi-faceted transportation system would be ideal. No one system would seem to satisfy all needs (speed, capacity, comfort, flexibility, reliability, scalability, etc.). I agree that PRTs would benefit WDW but I think that there utilization would be best suited in specific applications. The difference between the Trolleybus and PRT is unit capacity. The trolleybus can hold up to 200 people each. This is beneficial for high-volume routes. The system could tolerate almost constant Trolleybus transits for high-capacity days on high-volume routes. These Trolleybuses would support and/or supplant additional Monorail loops that are not financially feasible. Where I think we differ is the system with which we would implement as the core or backbone of the overall WDW transit system. I believe that the Hybrid-Trolleybus would be best for mass transit between major facilities in conjunction with Monorails. These systems would best transport large amounts of people going to the similar locations. The Trolleybus would utilize a hybrid system with Bio-fuel or CNG diesel as a supplemental power source (not prime) to recharge the batteries if their charge is drawing down and the Trolleybus is not connected to catenaries. The diesel engine could also function as a regenerative charging source in concert with the braking system. In reality, the need for the diesel to be running in service would happen fairly infrequently if the power grid is designed correctly. In addition, the powertrain would rely on large banks of traction batteries in conjunction with overhead powered catenary lines (overhead for safety due to the proximity of travelers and the application being street-level) that would in turn power the traction motors as the prime motivators. For this application, I don’t think that limiting the vehicles to a single power source would be prudent. Overhead lines can become expensive especially when you would be installing 40-50 miles of lines for the entire grid.


I would utilize PRTs and to a lesser extent hybrid buses for large amounts of individuals and smaller groups that are travelling to dissimilar locations but along a common path. I believe that both Trolleybuses and PRTs to have similar positive attributes. Both mechanisms offer reduced carbon affect to the Resort. Neither is zero since power must come from somewhere. Structured and efficient power grids would motivate both systems. With the perceived improvement in seat-cost fuel economy that is expected from the Hybrid trolleybus powered by bio-fuel, CNG, battery bank, overhead catenary, etc., WDW, Inc. could field a fairly large fleet for huge passenger throughput system wide that would overwhelm a system based solely on PRTs.

As I mentioned, I really do like the theory of implementing a PRT system to WDW but I believe that the PRTs would best serve for individual and small groups that require a point-to-point transit. If guests choose to use PRT traffic from Resort to Park, which increases vehicle traffic at these already crowded destinations, then a fee-based system would help offset the ongoing costs as well as persuade people to use higher-capacity systems. This is the basic premise of any major transit system. Get the individual vehicles out of the loop and convince people to use a proven and safe mass transit. If you relied on PRTs to handle to bulk of passenger traffic throughout the Resort daily, you are talking about 10,000s of people with a unit capacity of approx. 6 passengers. The waiting queues and vehicle pathways would stack up like a 6 lane highway cut down to 2 at an accident. These chokepoints would stymie the system for hours with very little method of relieving the problem other than redirecting the PRTs to secondary destinations that require a transfer to another method of transport. In addition, PRTs would also utilize large battery banks and/or some form of catenary system powered by the grid. PRTs would be much more dependent on staging/charging stations. This could be accomplished at each destination station but require an inordinate amount of vehicles to be out of service at any given time when in high-demand. The transit grid would be less likely to experience any service delays with a robust vehicle that utilizes the diesel backup to overcome any electrical grid shortcomings or any vehicle issues due to constant use as expected during peak times. By limiting the PRTs to a secondary role for transit, I believe that the in-service time would be higher. I definitely agree that PRTs should be implemented in the WDW transit system of the future. I believe that the technology is there today. I believe that the service would be of high value and possibly small source of revenue. I do not think that the system would be appropriate as the installed primary source for mass transit.

I believe that the transit system of the future at WDW should become a model for others worldwide, as it once was in the 70s. The implementation of updated Monorail cars with leading-edge communication and control systems with improved passenger ergonomics is critical to this. I believe a Trolleybus designed from the onset to leading-edge utilizing alternative power systems and dramatic style and ergonomic improvements would provide the ideal backbone of a thriving system. I also believe that a smaller fleet of hybrid buses/trams to support the two high-capacity systems is still critical to overall passenger throughput. Finally, PRTs would offer excellent private transportation for individuals, families and small groups. The flexibility of this system would be perfect for situations where large amounts of individuals are being transported but to various destinations. If everyone was going to the same sport at the same time, why not simplify and put them on the same vehicle. PRTs would be a way for family to go virtually anywhere on the Resort using pre-programmed routes in a safe manner with no stress and minimal cost. These PRTs could function as individual tour vehicles or unplanned transport to a destination that was time-sensitive precluding transfers.


Now, I laid out what I believe to be a comprehensive and resilient transit system. Now, the supplemental connections.

Would piloted or automated trams (supersized PRTs) be appropriate for intra-resort transit or for resorts not directly serviced by Trolleybuses? I would like to think so. Some Resorts are really quite large and cumbersome to navigate with children, luggage, the elderly and/or disabled. Establishing cost effective, safe and reliable transit systems within the larger Resorts seems to make sense.

Oversized PRTs or Trams would allow the guest to be dropped at the Front Desk for check-in (Magical Express?). Once checked in, the guests could then utilize individual PRTs programmed by Room/Bldg. or by larger Piloted Trams. Having cargo-trams for luggage, housekeeping, service, etc. could also utilize this system. This system incorporation would support ADA requirements while improving customer morale. The larger Trams could also be utilized to convey guests staying at Resorts that are not directly serviced by Monorail or Trolleybus. These Trams would deliver the guests to the nearest Hub/Station for Mass Transit.

Would the WDW support and service teams benefit from these systems, yes. Establishing a centralized stores hub that would then service the other aspects of the overall WDW Resort could be implemented. Food, supplies, trash, etc. could be routed through a more efficient centralized and controlled hub set up like an overnight shipping facility. Barcode scanners and conveyors to automatically distribute goods to the proper load bays for loading onto the Trams for distribution.

Obviously, it would less than ideal to have the service traffic utilizing the passenger lanes during daylight operation but, by having the goods and supplies delivered over these same routes throughout the night tour would further amortize the cost of implementation across other cost centers of WDW. Rapid and controlled delivery helps to minimize damage and/or loss while reducing on-the-shelf cost-out logistics. The just-in-time method being modified to nightly delivery would help to streamline the process.
Does WDW, Inc. already have these controls and distribution systems implemented? Probably or something better. But, by being able to leverage the Trolleybus and PRT infrastructure, the WDW support systems would only improve their efficiency and profitability.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
I think that we both agree that a multi-faceted transportation system would be ideal. No one system would seem to satisfy all needs (speed, capacity, comfort, flexibility, reliability, scalability, etc.). I agree that PRTs would benefit WDW but I think that there utilization would be best suited in specific applications. The difference between the Trolleybus and PRT is unit capacity. The trolleybus can hold up to 200 people each. This is beneficial for high-volume routes. The system could tolerate almost constant Trolleybus transits for high-capacity days on high-volume routes. These Trolleybuses would support and/or supplant additional Monorail loops that are not financially feasible. Where I think we differ is the system with which we would implement as the core or backbone of the overall WDW transit system. I believe that the Hybrid-Trolleybus would be best for mass transit between major facilities in conjunction with Monorails. These systems would best transport large amounts of people going to the similar locations. The Trolleybus would utilize a hybrid system with Bio-fuel or CNG diesel as a supplemental power source (not prime) to recharge the batteries if their charge is drawing down and the Trolleybus is not connected to catenaries. The diesel engine could also function as a regenerative charging source in concert with the braking system. In reality, the need for the diesel to be running in service would happen fairly infrequently if the power grid is designed correctly. In addition, the powertrain would rely on large banks of traction batteries in conjunction with overhead powered catenary lines (overhead for safety due to the proximity of travelers and the application being street-level) that would in turn power the traction motors as the prime motivators. For this application, I don’t think that limiting the vehicles to a single power source would be prudent. Overhead lines can become expensive especially when you would be installing 40-50 miles of lines for the entire grid.


I would utilize PRTs and to a lesser extent hybrid buses for large amounts of individuals and smaller groups that are travelling to dissimilar locations but along a common path. I believe that both Trolleybuses and PRTs to have similar positive attributes. Both mechanisms offer reduced carbon affect to the Resort. Neither is zero since power must come from somewhere. Structured and efficient power grids would motivate both systems. With the perceived improvement in seat-cost fuel economy that is expected from the Hybrid trolleybus powered by bio-fuel, CNG, battery bank, overhead catenary, etc., WDW, Inc. could field a fairly large fleet for huge passenger throughput system wide that would overwhelm a system based solely on PRTs.

As I mentioned, I really do like the theory of implementing a PRT system to WDW but I believe that the PRTs would best serve for individual and small groups that require a point-to-point transit. If guests choose to use PRT traffic from Resort to Park, which increases vehicle traffic at these already crowded destinations, then a fee-based system would help offset the ongoing costs as well as persuade people to use higher-capacity systems. This is the basic premise of any major transit system. Get the individual vehicles out of the loop and convince people to use a proven and safe mass transit. If you relied on PRTs to handle to bulk of passenger traffic throughout the Resort daily, you are talking about 10,000s of people with a unit capacity of approx. 6 passengers. The waiting queues and vehicle pathways would stack up like a 6 lane highway cut down to 2 at an accident. These chokepoints would stymie the system for hours with very little method of relieving the problem other than redirecting the PRTs to secondary destinations that require a transfer to another method of transport. In addition, PRTs would also utilize large battery banks and/or some form of catenary system powered by the grid. PRTs would be much more dependent on staging/charging stations. This could be accomplished at each destination station but require an inordinate amount of vehicles to be out of service at any given time when in high-demand. The transit grid would be less likely to experience any service delays with a robust vehicle that utilizes the diesel backup to overcome any electrical grid shortcomings or any vehicle issues due to constant use as expected during peak times. By limiting the PRTs to a secondary role for transit, I believe that the in-service time would be higher. I definitely agree that PRTs should be implemented in the WDW transit system of the future. I believe that the technology is there today. I believe that the service would be of high value and possibly small source of revenue. I do not think that the system would be appropriate as the installed primary source for mass transit.

I believe that the transit system of the future at WDW should become a model for others worldwide, as it once was in the 70s. The implementation of updated Monorail cars with leading-edge communication and control systems with improved passenger ergonomics is critical to this. I believe a Trolleybus designed from the onset to leading-edge utilizing alternative power systems and dramatic style and ergonomic improvements would provide the ideal backbone of a thriving system. I also believe that a smaller fleet of hybrid buses/trams to support the two high-capacity systems is still critical to overall passenger throughput. Finally, PRTs would offer excellent private transportation for individuals, families and small groups. The flexibility of this system would be perfect for situations where large amounts of individuals are being transported but to various destinations. If everyone was going to the same sport at the same time, why not simplify and put them on the same vehicle. PRTs would be a way for family to go virtually anywhere on the Resort using pre-programmed routes in a safe manner with no stress and minimal cost. These PRTs could function as individual tour vehicles or unplanned transport to a destination that was time-sensitive precluding transfers.


Now, I laid out what I believe to be a comprehensive and resilient transit system. Now, the supplemental connections.

Would piloted or automated trams (supersized PRTs) be appropriate for intra-resort transit or for resorts not directly serviced by Trolleybuses? I would like to think so. Some Resorts are really quite large and cumbersome to navigate with children, luggage, the elderly and/or disabled. Establishing cost effective, safe and reliable transit systems within the larger Resorts seems to make sense.

Oversized PRTs or Trams would allow the guest to be dropped at the Front Desk for check-in (Magical Express?). Once checked in, the guests could then utilize individual PRTs programmed by Room/Bldg. or by larger Piloted Trams. Having cargo-trams for luggage, housekeeping, service, etc. could also utilize this system. This system incorporation would support ADA requirements while improving customer morale. The larger Trams could also be utilized to convey guests staying at Resorts that are not directly serviced by Monorail or Trolleybus. These Trams would deliver the guests to the nearest Hub/Station for Mass Transit.

Would the WDW support and service teams benefit from these systems, yes. Establishing a centralized stores hub that would then service the other aspects of the overall WDW Resort could be implemented. Food, supplies, trash, etc. could be routed through a more efficient centralized and controlled hub set up like an overnight shipping facility. Barcode scanners and conveyors to automatically distribute goods to the proper load bays for loading onto the Trams for distribution.

Obviously, it would less than ideal to have the service traffic utilizing the passenger lanes during daylight operation but, by having the goods and supplies delivered over these same routes throughout the night tour would further amortize the cost of implementation across other cost centers of WDW. Rapid and controlled delivery helps to minimize damage and/or loss while reducing on-the-shelf cost-out logistics. The just-in-time method being modified to nightly delivery would help to streamline the process.
Does WDW, Inc. already have these controls and distribution systems implemented? Probably or something better. But, by being able to leverage the Trolleybus and PRT infrastructure, the WDW support systems would only improve their efficiency and profitability.

I think that we are on the same page with what can be used. The PRT system can serve as the automated backbone to wdw at night, much like how UPS uses an automated system with human element at their worldport facility. It would work out well that way because during the day disney isn't moving as much because it would interfere with guests.

As for in resort transportation, you could have trams that follow rfid transmitters embedded in the ground.
 

jwm

New Member
Flavious, if you agree with my premise that PRTs would be overwhelmed as the primary mode of guest transit, then I agree with you that they would be ideal as the more specialized transit for individuals and small groupds. The PRTs would be the most appropriate after-hours transit option. It’s safe, direct and efficient. The PRTs would run by demand (pull) as needed. The PRTs would likely be staged at higher targeted locations depending on data.

Here are my thoughts:

Early AM – the majority of PRTs are staged primarily at Resorts while a smaller number are staged at the TTC Transit Hubs. At this point, The Trolleybus would transport the majority of guests in comfort. As mentioned earlier, there wouldn’t be enough PRTs to act as primary transport for this type of volume. In addition, the chokepoints would be staggering.

Late AM / Early PM – most PRTs are now staged throughout the park at ‘destinations’ like Parks with a smaller number staged at supplemental sites such as Blizzard Beach or Downtown Disney. There are still some PRTs at Resorts but in smaller numbers. PRTs are primarily being used now for families or small groups returning to Resorts. There may be some Park-hopping as well.

Mid PM – some PRTs are still staging at Resorts but they are being utilized throughout the Resort now. Depending on volume, PRTs might not be utilized as much as the Trolleybus at this point (especially since the PRTs would probably cost a nominal fee).

Evening / After-hours – This is where the PRT utilization would pick up dramatically. Individual dinner and entertainment options for guests would justify the small costs involved. Knowing that there is a safe and comfortable ride home late at night available for a reasonable fee would be justified by the vast majority of guests staying on property.

In review of the other options, I realized that a single Monorail loop addition wouldn’t be able to adequately satisfy the cost/benefit relationship. A single loop expansion that would stretch from AKL-AK-HS-BW-DD-Buena Vista wouldn’t be able to handle the volume staying at all these resorts.

I believe that a new transit hub on the EPCOT line that feeds to Monorail loops, (1 to AK, AKL, BW & HS while the other goes to DD and the DVC Resorts) would not solve enough the overcrowding and satisfaction issues while still be cost effective. This scenario would require a transfer for any passengers coming from the DD/Buena Vista area to any Park. Likewise, DD/Buena Vista wouldn’t really benefit any guest Resorts. Would I like to see a Monorail expansion? Yes, but I don’t see it as a viable solution right now?

Once again, I mention the Hub-and-Spoke system with the Trolleybus. In previous articles, I think that I have laid out a reasonable argument for these vehicles to become the backbone of the WDW Resort Transit system.

Finally, there will always be a need for busing in some form or another. Obviously, upgrading to more efficient and cleaner hybrid options would be ideal. There would not be a need for 280-300 buses under the updated system so unit maintenance would theoretically drop.

As always, feel free to offer comments, praise and snide remarks. All are welcome.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Flavious, if you agree with my premise that PRTs would be overwhelmed as the primary mode of guest transit, then I agree with you that they would be ideal as the more specialized transit for individuals and small groupds. The PRTs would be the most appropriate after-hours transit option. It’s safe, direct and efficient. The PRTs would run by demand (pull) as needed. The PRTs would likely be staged at higher targeted locations depending on data.

Here are my thoughts:

Early AM – the majority of PRTs are staged primarily at Resorts while a smaller number are staged at the TTC Transit Hubs. At this point, The Trolleybus would transport the majority of guests in comfort. As mentioned earlier, there wouldn’t be enough PRTs to act as primary transport for this type of volume. In addition, the chokepoints would be staggering.

Late AM / Early PM – most PRTs are now staged throughout the park at ‘destinations’ like Parks with a smaller number staged at supplemental sites such as Blizzard Beach or Downtown Disney. There are still some PRTs at Resorts but in smaller numbers. PRTs are primarily being used now for families or small groups returning to Resorts. There may be some Park-hopping as well.

Mid PM – some PRTs are still staging at Resorts but they are being utilized throughout the Resort now. Depending on volume, PRTs might not be utilized as much as the Trolleybus at this point (especially since the PRTs would probably cost a nominal fee).

Evening / After-hours – This is where the PRT utilization would pick up dramatically. Individual dinner and entertainment options for guests would justify the small costs involved. Knowing that there is a safe and comfortable ride home late at night available for a reasonable fee would be justified by the vast majority of guests staying on property.

In review of the other options, I realized that a single Monorail loop addition wouldn’t be able to adequately satisfy the cost/benefit relationship. A single loop expansion that would stretch from AKL-AK-HS-BW-DD-Buena Vista wouldn’t be able to handle the volume staying at all these resorts.

I believe that a new transit hub on the EPCOT line that feeds to Monorail loops, (1 to AK, AKL, BW & HS while the other goes to DD and the DVC Resorts) would not solve enough the overcrowding and satisfaction issues while still be cost effective. This scenario would require a transfer for any passengers coming from the DD/Buena Vista area to any Park. Likewise, DD/Buena Vista wouldn’t really benefit any guest Resorts. Would I like to see a Monorail expansion? Yes, but I don’t see it as a viable solution right now?

Once again, I mention the Hub-and-Spoke system with the Trolleybus. In previous articles, I think that I have laid out a reasonable argument for these vehicles to become the backbone of the WDW Resort Transit system.

Finally, there will always be a need for busing in some form or another. Obviously, upgrading to more efficient and cleaner hybrid options would be ideal. There would not be a need for 280-300 buses under the updated system so unit maintenance would theoretically drop.

As always, feel free to offer comments, praise and snide remarks. All are welcome.


That is about right for how they can use the system. I can also see a few different size PRTs being used also due to the use and time.

With any additions to the wdw transportation system, there will need to be a more centralized location for a ttc. This would also be if there will be a HSR station off I-4.

I just don't see an expanded monorail because of their cost, especially when they can do so much more for a fraction of the cost.
 

jwm

New Member
Agreed. Short of a Resort-wide overhaul that could be amortized over decades, there won't be any Monorail expansion. If WDW, Inc. had followed the original plan for EPCOT, then the cost could be justified. I would love to see it happen but it just doesn't make sense.

That being said, WDW, Inc. needs to do something. Buses are a cop-out. They should be a feeder system to a high-capacity state of the art transit system. With good project management, it could be built with a reasonable budget with a reasonable timeframe.

Build the system for the next 50 years. Start now. You are expanding again (Avatar? Cars Land? Flamingo Crossing?) There have been a lot of stillborn projects. If you prefer to continue to grow (and profit), stop milking the cash chow. Consumers don't always see the fruits of process improvement. Give them something tangible that would become a draw of its own.
Lets go Disney, you have (had? Lucas?) the money.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
I would imagine a Peoplemover would be more expesnive than a monorail expansion :confused:

It would be less per mile because the vehicles would weight less. Also they could use composite materials instead of the beams they use now. A PRT system is similar to a people mover system.
 

jwm

New Member
Can you say PodRacer PRTs? How about LandSpeeder Trolleybuses and SkyHopper Monorails. Nice. Oh yea, AT-AT buses, if they are even that fast.
 

rkleinlein

Well-Known Member
Here's my idea for expanded system. I think the solution isn't to have a monorail go everywhere necessarily but to use monorail to get you from one area of the resort to the other stopping at major destinations. Then for hotels and smaller destinations transportation circulates within that area, reducing the long bus routes and duplicated bus routes.

 

Timon

Well-Known Member
The biggest problem as I see it that the different parks close at different times. This will cause rushes from the other parks to MK but confined to the same train all the way to the MK gate they will max out before they are half way there. This is why cities use lines running North South and East West. Transfer stations even out crowds plus if it's Multi-Modal station there would buses, PRTs, taxi and cars spread the crowd out more and give options for overloaded modes of transport.

My take on Mickey Mass Transit:
East-West Line and the Multi-Modal connections
East-West%2520Line.jpg


Here is the Est-West Route (PRT routes not shown)
East-West%2520Line%252001%2520copy.jpg
 

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