Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

RandySavage

Well-Known Member
Here is something from yesterday's speech. I POSTED THIS super rare VIDEO SHOT INSIDE WDI FROM 1988. This was made to show to our French counterparts and introduce them to our team. You will see my office as well as our working area and the EDL model shop. Enjoy and welcome to Part 2!.

http://gallery.me.com/boss_angeles#100347
THANK YOU for that fantastic non-produced look at the inner workings of WDI. I love the models. In light of Shanghai Disneyland, it was interesting to me how locked-down much of the design seemed to be in 1988 (versus 1992 opening), prior to re-locating to Paris and beginning construction. I imagine Shanghai is in the same advanced state of design with early digging underway and WDI re-locating to Shanghai - they've kept a pretty tight lid on it.

The drawing/model for what I'm guessing was the re-do of DL's Carousel of Progress to what you called Starship was very, very cool, as well. Also noted: the At-At outside Star Tours and the early version of Discovery Mountain (that coincides with the Sam McKim "fun map" of the park).
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Piece of DLP 20th history

Here's another clip from my recent speech. This video was shot at a design review of the Steam Trains in Wales, UK. We are so detail oriented, that we even approve the sounds of the bell and whistle. (the whistle may have flunked this review as I recall). You will also see the unique design of the very ornate coach for the Number One train. All four trains were different. Some images here. http://www.photosmagiques.com/gallery/disneyland_park/main_street_usa/main_street_station.php

The Imagineer demonstrating all of this is Eddie Johnson, a very talented veteran who was our MSUSA field art director at the time. We travelled together and he was fantastic. Bob Harpur from WDW was also in the shots, he was our expert in engineering and was involved in the WDW trains. Enjoy.

http://gallery.me.com/boss_angeles#100398
 

janoimagine

Well-Known Member
Fascinating stuff. What I love is all the research and attention to detail you and your crew put into everything, it is so critical to a project like this and it really does show. Thanks so much for sharing this.
 

Jeanine

Member
Thanks for posting the videos--it was great to be able to see the whole thing, after watching the clips and getting the background information during the talk!
 

GrimGhost

Member
just an idea

I apologize for not being able to run it all in the talk, but the time got away from me.

Thanks Eddie!! Hey, I just did some quick math..and if Parks and Resorts is going to be for sale for around $20 bill. You take around 100,000 die hard fans off Steve's website (estimating) and we each come up with $200k, we could make something really happen....and you could run the whole thing for us. :animwink:
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Thanks Eddie!! Hey, I just did some quick math..and if Parks and Resorts is going to be for sale for around $20 bill. You take around 100,000 die hard fans off Steve's website (estimating) and we each come up with $200k, we could make something really happen....and you could run the whole thing for us. :animwink:

LOL. I won't hold my breath, but thanks for the heads up, will adjust my schedule.
 

krash9924

Member
Interactive games

Eddie,

What are your thoughts on the interactive games at the parks? Kim Possible at Epcot is fun the first time but to me doesn't need to be done again. Do you think the rumored Magic Kingdom game can make this experience repeatable?

Thanks for all your time on this thread. I has been an amazing read.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Eddie,

What are your thoughts on the interactive games at the parks? Kim Possible at Epcot is fun the first time but to me doesn't need to be done again. Do you think the rumored Magic Kingdom game can make this experience repeatable?

Thanks for all your time on this thread. I has been an amazing read.

I am in favor of things like that and worked on their development back in the day. Of course so much is possible today that was never imagined then. And people are far more addicted to handhelds today. So you can either let them engage with the "real world", or find a way to bring them closer and deeper into the stories themselves they paid to see. So In a way I'm biased toward the Intelligent integration of technology as long as it's done in a way that it does not become divisive socially, or detract from the immersion and magic of the lands itself. If you could develop handheld technology and games that make the "family have more fun together", then I believe that is much more in the spirit of Walt Disney than divisive technology where everyone has their head bowed looking at the little screen. I must say, there has been more than one dinner where our family is sitting in a restaurant and all four of us are looking down at our iPhone's. Pathetic. We now have a "phone's down" policy. It should also be mandated that the technology is metaphorically "invisible" and does not detract from the other attractions in a way that the other guests feel they are missing something. I have not played Kim or any other games at WDW so I cannot fairly weigh in on them. The goal is to be repeatable, so I guess the mark of success is that you want to go back and do more.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
THANK YOU for that fantastic non-produced look at the inner workings of WDI. I love the models. In light of Shanghai Disneyland, it was interesting to me how locked-down much of the design seemed to be in 1988 (versus 1992 opening), prior to re-locating to Paris and beginning construction. I imagine Shanghai is in the same advanced state of design with early digging underway and WDI re-locating to Shanghai - they've kept a pretty tight lid on it.

The drawing/model for what I'm guessing was the re-do of DL's Carousel of Progress to what you called Starship was very, very cool, as well. Also noted: the At-At outside Star Tours and the early version of Discovery Mountain (that coincides with the Sam McKim "fun map" of the park).

Other than seeing the team of people behind-the-scenes and our luxurious surroundings, there are many creative "Easter eggs" in that video for you to find. Another thing to understand is that rock work that is done in model form was also used in the estimating process. It's very difficult to look at a mountain with nooks and crannies and be able to estimate how much concrete is required to construct it. The estimators would take measured squares of aluminum foil and wrap the mountain in the foil, pushing it into those very and crannies. Based on how many pieces of foil are used they could determine the ultimate square footage of material required to build the mountain. Today, computers calculate the amount of steel and wire frame to complete this process more accurately. But back then, you needed a foam model. Even the structure was drawn on the model. Many times when the project was over budget, the designers would be recarve foam model and eliminate excess rock work. I believe that still occurs today. I'm not sure if they scan the foam model, or just build the whole thing in 3-D. Probably both.
 
Hi Eddie et al! I have a question about master plans. Reading about the upcoming Carousel of Projects for D23, and some of the Imagineers' concerns that it may become another Disney Decade (ie. a slew of promising projects that end up never being built), it made me think of the five-, ten-, even twenty-year(?) master plans that get mentioned about the parks. With the amount of time they cover, and the massively changing circumstances that a park must face, surely they never actually happen??

So I was wondering if you could shed some light on what these plans are like? How specific are they ("We're going add 'Desperate Housewives: The Ride' in 2018"), or are they more about suggesting budgets and target audiences without specific content or theme? Do they detail changes in park direction perhaps (like the Hollywood Studios divergence from a working studio)? Perhaps they look at what available space can be used in the future, or what attractions may need to be removed? And who are in charge of these, it seems more like an Operations document than an Imagineering one (I know that the Disneyland Long Range Master Plan from 1976 that suggested World Holiday Land, Big City USA and some other things that covered a whopping twenty-four years, was done by the Disneyland Interdivisional Team, not WDI ... who thought it a little bland). If these plans aren't done by WDI, how bound are the Imagineers to the plans?

It seems that beyond three, four, five years, predicting what will be built seems almost impossible, even to those who make the decisions. What benefit do these master plans bring, how long do they last before being replaced, and most interestingly perhaps... how accurate are they in hindsight?



For anyone interested, here are the extracts from the 1976 master plan mentioned (Eddie, is this typical of them?):

... To give Westernland a completely new appearance, the Davy Crockett area and the Frontierland log fort would be replaced with a new facade. This facade would be more of the Pendleton - Golden Horseshoe architecture. While viewed from the central plaza it would give the appearance of a new development and would also add the continuity to Frontierland that presently does not exist. Two major attractions would be added in the existed Mine Train area, an indoor thrill / show type 3400 / hour, and an outdoor gravity thrill attraction of 2200 / hour. These two would help ease the demand problem that exists at our thrill attractions.

... reworking the west end of Fantasyland. A marquee type attraction similar to Dumbo or the Rocket Jets possibly with a Mary Poppins theme would be added where the Fantasy 1 food stand is presently located. This would serve to set the area off as a new experience and create interest as a visual and physically exciting attraction. In addition, a new dark ride attraction possibly with a Pooh theme with 900/hour capacity could be added near Casey, Jr. The major attraction of the reworked area would a thrill show attraction of 2600/hour capacity. This could be developed around Mary Poppins and include a major merchandise complex at the exit. The Pinocchio attraction would round out the area fiiting into what is now the Mickey Mouse theatre, with 1000/hour capacity.

... During parade time, guest completely block Main Street, which necessitates walking guests entering or exiting the Park through service areas. To relieve this problem, a second Main Street area is needed. This could very likely be a Liberty Square themed area between Main Street and Space Mountain, containing Hall of Presidents, food, merchandising, and a new first aid facility.

The theme of (this) new land could be developed around the Big Town setting. This would enable the use of shops and food facilities of a variety of sizes and types, which were all part of the city at the turn of the century. Several other legitimate Big Town elements could be used that are not properly themed elsewhere in the Park. An indoor theatre, 3000 seat, could be included for live stage shows with big name talent. The use of our existing railroad in an elevated fashion would serve as another visual attraction while adding a new dimension to our steam trains.

Part of America that was once very exciting and has since died out is the old carni-amusement park. The use of a Victorian style playland could show this piece of our history in a themed area. A ferris wheel, roller coaster, and small water sports such as paddle boats could be included by extending our Rivers of America. Other elements might be the entrance of a time machine ride through an old subway.

Food facilities could be developed around a number of themes. An automat, cafeteria or even small delicatessans are good themes. A Golden Horseshoe type experience might be set under a Ziegfeld theme including a dinner with the show.

... a new area with an adventure theme could be developed, extending the Rivers of America to provide a large water area and a volcanic island. Some of our studio properties -- Island at the Top of the World, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea as well as the Lost Continent of Atlantis, Journey to the Center of the Earth, and other H.G. Wells - Jules Verny type attractions could be used. The water area could also be serve as the setting for some smaller water activities or attractions.

... A thrill attraction with a Bavarian theme; a Scandinavian folklore attraction; a medieval England oriented show; a CircleVision 360 theatre with a world travel theme; and another indoor theatre with international live stage shows are all possible attractions. Food facilities such as a Bavarian waitress service, old English pub, French sidewalk cafe and a gourmet snack shop would provide the necessary artmosphere, while small artisan and souvenir shops would be themed to the various European areas.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
It seems that beyond three, four, five years, predicting what will be built seems almost impossible, even to those who make the decisions. What benefit do these master plans bring, how long do they last before being replaced, and most interestingly perhaps... how accurate are they in hindsight?
[/I]

Not to be cynical, but if history is any indicator, nothing is firm till the Tractor shows up. D23 is first and foremost marketing. The economy and other factors have a huge effect on all of these things and their potential. Master plans have been made and broken and 5 years is probably a good indicator as it's the turnaround time for most things in production. Master Plans are necessary as you have to project spending and marketing plans. Tour operators have to know what they are selling as booking happen one or more years in advance. Master plans can even be schematic as in "parade" year 2, birthday year 3, new E ride year 4, etc. and they know what they are planning for and then plug in the content. Some franchises get hot and they add them in sooner as enhancements, like Pirates. The board wants to know you globally have a direction and understand when the industry drops out and you have to shift. In fact, they'd expect you to respond to changing conditions anyway. I can't address any current plans, but to your point, the "Carousel of Projects" continues to turn and who knows what will show up next?
 

cynic710

Well-Known Member
Eddie, not to be off topic, but from your experience is there any need with the imagineer company for a professional industrial designer? i mainly work in product design but work with 3d cad as well as illustrator and photoshop.
 

trs518

Active Member
Not to be cynical, but if history is any indicator, nothing is firm till the Tractor shows up. D23 is first and foremost marketing. The economy and other factors have a huge effect on all of these things and their potential. Master plans have been made and broken and 5 years is probably a good indicator as it's the turnaround time for most things in production. Master Plans are necessary as you have to project spending and marketing plans. Tour operators have to know what they are selling as booking happen one or more years in advance. Master plans can even be schematic as in "parade" year 2, birthday year 3, new E ride year 4, etc. and they know what they are planning for and then plug in the content. Some franchises get hot and they add them in sooner as enhancements, like Pirates. The board wants to know you globally have a direction and understand when the industry drops out and you have to shift. In fact, they'd expect you to respond to changing conditions anyway. I can't address any current plans, but to your point, the "Carousel of Projects" continues to turn and who knows what will show up next?

I'm sure that throughout these plans, maintenance of the rides is laid out as well. Space Mountain will be refurbed for $x million during Q1 20YY, Peter Pan will be refurbed for $z million in Q2 of 20xx.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Eddie, not to be off topic, but from your experience is there any need with the imagineer company for a professional industrial designer? i mainly work in product design but work with 3d cad as well as illustrator and photoshop.

That is something better via PM.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I'm sure that throughout these plans, maintenance of the rides is laid out as well. Space Mountain will be refurbed for $x million during Q1 20YY, Peter Pan will be refurbed for $z million in Q2 of 20xx.

Pretty much, they have to add up what a year will cost and project that. some are depreciated ongoing costs, other are capital investments.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Not to be cynical, but if history is any indicator, nothing is firm till the Tractor shows up. D23 is first and foremost marketing. The economy and other factors have a huge effect on all of these things and their potential. Master plans have been made and broken and 5 years is probably a good indicator as it's the turnaround time for most things in production. Master Plans are necessary as you have to project spending and marketing plans. Tour operators have to know what they are selling as booking happen one or more years in advance. Master plans can even be schematic as in "parade" year 2, birthday year 3, new E ride year 4, etc. and they know what they are planning for and then plug in the content. Some franchises get hot and they add them in sooner as enhancements, like Pirates. The board wants to know you globally have a direction and understand when the industry drops out and you have to shift. In fact, they'd expect you to respond to changing conditions anyway. I can't address any current plans, but to your point, the "Carousel of Projects" continues to turn and who knows what will show up next?

D23 is marketing? Man I thought they were going to go all jobs with having a wwdc event reveal.
 

esskay

Well-Known Member
Hi Eddie,

Firstly I'd like to just say its fantastic to have you here!

I was wondering if you could answer something for me. Hypothetically, if you were still with Disney, and you were asked to improve the design of Tomorrowland and Epcot's Future World, what would you do? I ask this because whilst these two sections are my favourite, they also do appear to be stuck in the 80's to some extent.

Strangely, its because they have this retro feel that I think I love them so much. My worry is that they wont appear as relevant or as futuristic as they are supposed to be, yet at the same time provide an excellent insight to how the parks were designed.

Looking at old photos, they haven't changed all that dramatically. They both sport the same or similar color schemes and layouts. Do you think that a major upgrade will soon become a necessity to keep them at the forefront of their focus on future technology?

When you think about the attractions, even they do still seem to be very dated, whilst still being very entertaining. (E.g Ellen, Carousel of Progress, etc). Was Disney once planning a major update with the likes of Mission Space sadly replacing Horizons? Could this also be why Disney opted not to keep Wonders of Life operational without a sponsor?

Thanks again! :)
 
Eddie, I don't know if you've seen this but if not you might get a chuckle out of it. The website TV Tropes has the trope 'Crapsaccharine World' which it describes as "A setting which, at first sight, looks nice and cute. [...] Suddenly, you notice something wrong, and upon investigating, you realize that every single thing below the surface is horribly wrong and dysfunctional." Funnily, they use Main Street, U.S.A. as an example of this because of the audio bits which I think you had a hand in. Here's what it says:

"Main Street USA, of all places. Some (possibly now-disused) audio bits played from certain second-story windows reveal, among other things, that the local dentist is life-threateningly incompetent at his job (and doesn't seem to care if one of his patients is seriously injured during a procedure), the fire chief (who is also the postmaster and general store owner) cannot begin to comprehend the idea that a fire is a dangerous emergency that requires IMMEDIATE action, the town populace is extremely prone to spreading gossip and will openly and offensively insult one another on occasion, the police have totaled their new paddy wagon and are engaged in a cover-up to keep the Mayor from becoming aware, and the piano teacher is physically abusive to the children she teaches (that last one, unfortunately, could be considered accurate for the time period MSUSA is set in). It's all Played for Laughs, but when you think about it too hard..."
 

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