Does DVC Membership Make Sense?

[slappy magoo]

dave, I appreciate the support (I appreciate everyone's support, between the thread & the PMs, thanks, all). I had no intent of writing in this thread again, but I just wanted to correct a point I didn't make clear...

I wasn't referring to DVC, the business, making money off of our dues. I was talking about DVC members reselling their points. There's no guarantee a member will turn a profit, especially when what you paid in dues are factored in to what you paid DVC in total. (But, you're in a club, you pay club dues.) However, it seems like many members with shares in OKW, BCV, BWV, & WLV, get more than their initial investment back when they resell. Maybe HHI & Vero owners do, too. Not Saratoga, not yet, anyway. But it's new & all the orignal points aren't sold out yet. No one should buy DVC assuming the can use & sell it as a profit, but it'scertainly not uncommon, either.

That's what I was referring to.

 

[Phonedave]

dave, I appreciate the support (I appreciate everyone's support, between the thread & the PMs, thanks, all). I had no intent of writing in this thread again, but I just wanted to correct a point I didn't make clear...

I wasn't referring to DVC, the business, making money off of our dues. I was talking about DVC members reselling their points. There's no guarantee a member will turn a profit, especially when what you paid in dues are factored in to what you paid DVC in total. (But, you're in a club, you pay club dues.) However, it seems like many members with shares in OKW, BCV, BWV, & WLV, get more than their initial investment back when they resell. Maybe HHI & Vero owners do, too. Not Saratoga, not yet, anyway. But it's new & all the orignal points aren't sold out yet. No one should buy DVC assuming the can use & sell it as a profit, but it'scertainly not uncommon, either.

That's what I was referring to.

Ah, I get it now

Yes, you are 100% correct in what you are saying.

I mis-interpeted your intent because I get this "argument" quite a bit, from people who may be interested in the DVC. They will say something like
Disney will use your yearly fees to hire more sales people. Or they use them to build more units" etc. And thats not the case. By law, your dues cover operating expenses of the resort your own. In fact, this now raises my curiosity. I always assumed that the cost of Member Services is pro-rated over the entire DVC holdings. But I wonder if that is indeed the case, or if they break that cost up in some other way? It most likely is pro-rated, but when you assume you ....... . I'll have to check and find out.


-dave

 

[MaxsDad]

Slappy you summed that up quite nicely!

"DVC: So easy an Apeman can do it."

 

[KevGuy]

I see that your being insulting was supposed to be a postive thing? DVC is good if you have a lot of money and are willing to pay extra to be a Disney with a guarantee. By the way, calling these a luxury stay is a real stretch. I don't recall seeing the valet, the brass fixtures, marble floors and marble bathrooms, or the crystal in any of the rooms I have been in. Since we is a Disneyfied Comfort Inn considered luxury?

I am sure you think DVC is a good deal, but don't impose those bizzare accounting methods on the rest of us. The numbers don't add up. You are right that locals don't see as much value in DVC. that is probably because we see the problems in making it all make sense to a person's pocketbook. Disney has a long standing reputation that if they put the Disney name on something that they can charge double or tripple for it compared to everything else. Think what you want, but there are a large number of us that think DVC is a total rip off and you can EASILY beat their hotels, rooms, rates, and fees while staying in something a lot nicer. Rather than Disney being a Premier timeshare, maybe it should be known as a timeshare for a premium. That would be a lot more accurate.

Oh well, since DVC members are getting insulting, I see no reason to read anymore of the the "stuff" being written here. Enjoy your dreamworld. After all, isn't that what the Disney magic is all about?:ROFLOL::wave:

I love DVC, so sorry for you being miserable that others are defending their position in liking it as you did against it. Buh buh bye.....:wave::sohappy:

 

[PX57chevy]

I put together an Excel spreadsheet comparing the cost of DVC against the cost of a deluxe resort, and found that using "real numbers" I would break-even and start saving money within 6 years, and would be saving a huge amount over the life of my DVC contract. My model assumed cash rooms would go up 3% per year, while DVC dues would go up 4% per year.

DVC is not for everyone -- especially if you stay offsite or at a value resort. It may make sense if you typically stay at a moderate resort, but it would take longer to reach the breakeven point.

Can you please send me that spreadsheet? px57chevy@verizon.net

Thanks Mike!!

 

[lebeau]

The original post did a great job of pointing out who might be a valid candidate for DVC.

I've run the numbers myself and I can't make them work out. Frankly, we're not even remotely candidates for DVC.

I just wanted to highlight three points.

1. If you have to finance, rethink DVC. The interest will eat up any savings you might have.

2. Don't forget to include the time value of money in your calculation. Paying $10,000 up front may be more costly than paying $15,000 over an extended period of time. To be honest, most DVC calcualtions I have seen posted that favor DVC fail to take time value of money into consideration.

3. You are giving up a lot of freedom by signing a contract. Yes, you can sell out of DVC. But you will be limited in many ways while you are a member of DVC.

For me, I would have to have gold bath tubs filled with money before I would buy into DVC. Any time I think about setting aside money for it, I quickly realize it would be more responsible to put the money aside for my children's college or my own retirement. Or even paying down my mortgage.

The ironic part is that if I had enough money to not worry about any of those things, I probably still wouldn't join DVC. Because at that point, paying for individual trips wouldn't be an issue and I'd rather not sacrifice the freedoms involved in joining DVC.

 

[backinaction]

If your staying at the grand floridian or poly every time you stay there then yea, you might break even over the 100 years they lock you into. The whole premise of dvc is that you save money over time because they raise their room rates every year. What they dont tell you is that that they also raise the dues and taxes you have to pay on your dvc every year as well. Its the dues, taxes, and finance charges that end up making it not worth it. They all increase over time, just like Disney's normal room rates. Disney doesn't really press that when they try to sell you a lifelong commitment.
Why are there so many DVC resale websites set up? People want out. I'm sorry, people that are not super rich want out. You can find DVCs on their sites for much cheaper then disney sells them for because DVC turns out to bleed money. Sorry if you dont have a barrel of money lying around, DVC just isn't worth it. You end up paying all this money and in reality you end up owning 0,NOTHING! Go out and buy some property by Disney. Its a way better investment!

 

[wm49rs]

If your staying at the grand floridian or poly every time you stay there then yea, you might break even over the 100 years they lock you into. The whole premise of dvc is that you save money over time because they raise their room rates every year. What they dont tell you is that that they also raise the dues and taxes you have to pay on your dvc every year as well. Its the dues, taxes, and finance charges that end up making it not worth it. They all increase over time, just like Disney's normal room rates. Disney doesn't really press that when they try to sell you a lifelong commitment.
Why are there so many DVC resale websites set up? People want out. I'm sorry, people that are not super rich want out. You can find DVCs on their sites for much cheaper then disney sells them for because DVC turns out to bleed money. Sorry if you dont have a barrel of money lying around, DVC just isn't worth it. You end up paying all this money and in reality you end up owning 0,NOTHING! Go out and buy some property by Disney. Its a way better investment!

And I'm assuming you moved your rant to this thread because it worked so well in the one about the DVC President departing?

And just what do you know about the "people" selling on DVC resale sites to make such broad assumptions? Yes, resale is cheaper, but the motives for people listing on those sites are ambiguous at best.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

If your staying at the grand floridian or poly every time you stay there then yea, you might break even over the 100 years they lock you into. The whole premise of dvc is that you save money over time because they raise their room rates every year. What they dont tell you is that that they also raise the dues and taxes you have to pay on your dvc every year as well. Its the dues, taxes, and finance charges that end up making it not worth it. They all increase over time, just like Disney's normal room rates. Disney doesn't really press that when they try to sell you a lifelong commitment.
Why are there so many DVC resale websites set up? People want out. I'm sorry, people that are not super rich want out. You can find DVCs on their sites for much cheaper then disney sells them for because DVC turns out to bleed money. Sorry if you dont have a barrel of money lying around, DVC just isn't worth it. You end up paying all this money and in reality you end up owning 0,NOTHING! Go out and buy some property by Disney. Its a way better investment!

I need you to do me a favor please, and tell me where I can find my barrels of money. I own DVC and last time I checked I am far from wealthy at the moment. Disney doesn't get to just arbitrarily raise dues or taxes. Laws are in place to prevent gouging on dues and every members gets an itemized report each year stating exactly what money is going where. Property taxes are outlined by government, and you pay those accordingly. It's one thing to dislike the system for whatever reasons you choose to not like (which I personally can't understand). It's quite another though to come on here and try to spread lies about DVC. People read these threads looking for advice and by you coming on here and giving false information you are not being fair to potential owners. State your opinions if you don't like DVC, but do not lie about how the system works since you are misinformed.

 

[The Mom]

People who own DVC have made it quite clear that it is not for everyone. It certainly would not be my choice.

And any sort of timeshare is a financial risk, especially if you do not have flexibility about dates. We owned two, but were able to lose one due to hurricane damage - insurance paid back the purchase price. But my BIL, who has been retired for almost 20 years, has several and knows how to work the system, so has been all over the country and world using exchanges.

We have used ours, but mostly in conjunction with his, ie, the families getting together somewhere for vacation.

I find that we break even, even with increases in dues, taxes, etc. And I'm sure that many people have the same experience with DVC. I just never spend a whole week there, so it's not a reasonable option. And I suspect that many of the resales are people who have had a change in their financial or family situation, have discovered that after a few years they really don't want to spend every vacation at WDW, don't have schedule flexibility, or don't want to be bothered figuring out how to make exchanges at other resorts.

Again, it's not for everyone, but it is for some.

 

[DVCOwner]

If your staying at the grand floridian or poly every time you stay there then yea, you might break even over the 100 years they lock you into. The whole premise of dvc is that you save money over time because they raise their room rates every year. What they dont tell you is that that they also raise the dues and taxes you have to pay on your dvc every year as well. Its the dues, taxes, and finance charges that end up making it not worth it. They all increase over time, just like Disney's normal room rates. Disney doesn't really press that when they try to sell you a lifelong commitment.
Why are there so many DVC resale websites set up? People want out. I'm sorry, people that are not super rich want out. You can find DVCs on their sites for much cheaper then disney sells them for because DVC turns out to bleed money. Sorry if you dont have a barrel of money lying around, DVC just isn't worth it. You end up paying all this money and in reality you end up owning 0,NOTHING! Go out and buy some property by Disney. Its a way better investment!

I do not understand why you are so upset about DVC. I do not have a lot of money, but enjoy visiting WDW. DVC is my investment in that enjoyment. DVC is not right for everyone, but it is right for me. I do not want to by some property by Disney and have all the problems of ownership. I want to be on property, ride the disney buses and enjoy my one week a year in a Magical place. So leave me alone about owning DVC and I will not try to get you to buy into it.

 

[fredtom]

I understand that the DVC may not work for everybody, but it's the best investment my DW and I ever made. Luckily, our membership has been magical.


"An Adventurer's life is best!" :lol:

 

[Phonedave]

We looked into the DVC last year. We could not figure out how to make it make sense. We live in the Disney area anyway and have enjoyed WDW since the park opened. But when we ran the numbers, it was cheaper to use our Annual Passholder discounts and stay in the deluxe hotels than it was to use the DVC. We also have 4 kids and pretty much have to have 2 rooms. The points required would have cost so much, I could have rented a suite for a week at WDW and still had change left over compared to the cost of usind the DVC.

Run the numbers for yourself. By the time you finance the $$$$ and then pay their high yearly dues, you could have taken the whole family on a 1st class vacation yourself without using the DVC and for less money than DVC. We actually figured it the cost of a Disney cruise on DVC every year vs. paying for a Disney Cruise every year on our own without DVC and it would cost us about $1200 a year less to not use DVC that to use DVC. Talk about a rip off.

The DVC is a total scam. You can do almost any trip cheaper than DVC and you can control the dates, etc. more than you can with DVC. Stay away. It doesn't even make sense if you stay at disney properties. They don't cut you any breaks. Stay away from DVC.

Again, DVC works for some people and not for others. 4 kids is a tipping point, as it pushes you into the 2 room category. For people who can utilize 1 room, that's a different story. I have "run the numbers" plenty of times. It works for me.

Some other comments

- Don't finanace. If you HAVE to, then shop around for the best rate. Don't just go with DVC package.

- Don't use points for cruises, or any non DVC property for that matter. Anybody who has done the least bit of research should know this. It is one of the first things that is mentioned when someone asks about the DVC. Using points for cruises (or ABD or non-DVC properties) is a money loosing situation. If you want to do it every so often to break up your vacation plans, thats fine. But to buy DVC with the express intent of using it for cruises is not a money saving move.

Discounts - including AP discounts, come and go. When Disney is pusing for guests, they offer loads of discounts, many better than DVC. When the economy is good, the discounts dry up, and the DVC is better.


-dave

 

[Phonedave]

OK.

How did this come up as a new thread for me ?

Way to bring it back from the dead


-dave

 

[Disneyfalcon]

OK.

How did this come up as a new thread for me ?

Way to bring it back from the dead


-dave

:lol: It came up as a new thread for me too this morning!! Maybe someone posted and then deleted?

 

[Pioneer Hall]

The post that Dave replied to was a spambot that copied a post from earlier in the thread. So I deleted that post, but apparently did it while it was being replied to as well.

 

[Capsin4]

Anybody can run the numbers, but do they run them correctly? The biggest thing I would guess people miscalculate is failing to adjust future savings to current dollars. This makes a huge difference in how favorable the numbers look...you pay a lot up front to save money over 40 years.

I ran the numbers for myself using a $78 per point cost at resale, 160 points, 3% inflation, 4% increase in maintenance fees per year and initial maintenance fee of $6 per point. Assuming the points would be spent on 1Bv at AKL, this gave me a break even point of 8 years, 4.5% savings (total to date) at 10 years and 23% at 20 years. They peak at 25.4% at year 31. Reasonable sensitivity analysis changed the results only slightly. Am I missing something?

Why would I go through the trouble when I can get villas at 20-30% off right now paying cash? The whole analysis depends on using a $700 rack rate when I can get it for $500. Or better yet, just rent a regular delux room which is nearly 40% less at rack and about 50% less with available discounts. I realize it's not exatly the same as a 1br villa.

I'm sure I would LOVE being an owner, but I can't justify it financially.

 

[GoofGoof]

Anybody can run the numbers, but do they run them correctly? The biggest thing I would guess people miscalculate is failing to adjust future savings to current dollars. This makes a huge difference in how favorable the numbers look...you pay a lot up front to save money over 40 years.

I ran the numbers for myself using a $78 per point cost at resale, 160 points, 3% inflation, 4% increase in maintenance fees per year and initial maintenance fee of $6 per point. Assuming the points would be spent on 1Bv at AKL, this gave me a break even point of 8 years, 4.5% savings (total to date) at 10 years and 23% at 20 years. They peak at 25.4% at year 31. Reasonable sensitivity analysis changed the results only slightly. Am I missing something?

Why would I go through the trouble when I can get villas at 20-30% off right now paying cash? The whole analysis depends on using a $700 rack rate when I can get it for $500. Or better yet, just rent a regular delux room which is nearly 40% less at rack and about 50% less with available discounts. I realize it's not exatly the same as a 1br villa.

I'm sure I would LOVE being an owner, but I can't justify it financially.

I'm not following your math. You said you broke even at 8 years. By breaking even doesn't that mean the point where your initial investment (including potential interest lost) plus maintenance fees paid equal what you would have paid for a hotel room? If so, in year 9 you are just comparing maintenance fees to cash room rate. Are you saying that you think the fees will be more than a room with a 30% discount?

In the 8 years you would have paid $8,800 in MFs plus your $12,500 buy-in. To make the numbers round lets say $3,700 for time value of money on your initial investment. An even $25,000 spent. If you start out with a cash room rate of $350 (50% off of your rack rate of $700) then it would cost $2,756 for a week including 12.5% tax. Compounded at 4% over 8 years your rate is now 3,627 for a week and you would have spent a little over $25,000 for the cash rooms for 8 years. You have broken even. In year 9 you are comparing a MF of $1,314 to a cash rate of $3,772. That's a 65% discount off of your $350 room. Assuming MFs and cash room rates increase at the same rate your 65% discount continues until the contract expires.

Until you hit your breakeven point you aren't saving any money, but once you hit the breakeven it's a steep discount to paying cash rates. Another way to look at it is if you sell your points once you hit 8 years and break even you should get at least $8,000 back in resale. That could almost pay for your next 3 year's room.

 

[Chezman1399]

It makes tons of sense for me to be DVC. I hit my break even point on my initial purchase in less than 3 years. Now to be clear I got it on the Disney Cruise with all those discounts plus the Cast Member discount plus referral discount at the time so I saved a ton on it. I think I got it at around $83 a point at the time that includes all purchase fees and everything in that number as well, no dues. I ran the numbers before a trip last year and we had already crushed our initial buy in plus the dues for our first 2+ years. We would have been staying at the Poly during most of this as well if we weren't DVC.

We've stayed at BLT 3 times for weekend trips
Ocean View at Aulani this is where I think we got most of our value because we actually got 2 nights free here.
AKL-Kidani (Home Resort) - 3 times - Studio, 1 Bedroom,and 2 Bedroom (Used refunded Aulani points for the 2 bedroom trip)

The 2 Bed Kidani Week and a week studio Ocean View at Aulani itself almost caused me to break even on it's own with about 70% of my total up front costs, and the Aulani trip is a trip I would have never would have been able to take without it. The rest of the small trips make up the rest of the difference plus our dues so far.

Our new contract at VGF, I know will take a lot longer since I didn't get any of the discounts I had before, but we bought that for convenience to the park, I know we'll hit the break even point there eventually.

Anyway long story short, DVC is perfect for us. Makes our trips cheaper, more convenient, and we've been able to visit places we wouldn't have been able to visit without it for as affordable as we've been able too. It has value for us because we love Disney, we love to travel, and we prefer to stay in upscale accommodations in convenient locations. It's not for everyone, but it's perfect for us.

 

[Ralphlaw]

A few things that aren't mentioned:

1. In-room laundry saves luggage space, which means we fly in with carry-ons and do not have to bother with baggage claim, lost luggage, etc . . ..
2. This also means we hit Magic Express a bit faster, and thus get to the World a bit faster.
3. Kitchen saves money, foodwise. We also eat a bit healthier, and have "free" coffee in the morning.
4. After a few days in a normal room, we drive each other nuts. That's less likely to happen in a 1 bedroom villa.
5. I have a 15 year old son and 7 year old daughter. At some point, they can't share a bed. In a villa, there's plenty of floor space to set up an air mattress with a fun fort of pillows around it. Even in studios, this is possible, especially the GF studios with a pull out drawer bed.
5. Little extras, like Tables in Wonderland and sneak peeks at the Fantasyland expansion.
6. Discounts all over, usually 10% on food and merch.
7. Two TVs is nice, especially when I want to check ESPN and the rest of the family wants anything else.
8. A nap area is nice, especially when some are napping and others in the other room aren't.
9. Two toilets--need I say more?
10. When things go wrong in the parks, the CMs seem a bit more helpful when you mention your DVC membership.
11. The same holds true for dinner reservations, it seems. And with the concierges.
12. It forces us to take a vacation, which we otherwise might neglect to do. This year, we took a vacation of a lifetime to Europe already, but we're also doing 9 days at the world over Christmas as, believe it or not, a more relaxing winter vacation. If not for DVC, we might not be going. The family is only young once, and DVC pushes us to do this.
13. Eventually, we'll be inviting friends or family to come along. With 300 BWV points, we can do that.
14. It pleases me to know that my wife and I, on retirement in about 15 years, can book a Studio for about 18 days (depending on time of year, resort, etc . . .)

I congratulate those brainy people who can spreadsheet the whole thing, but my reasons for membership cannot all be put on a spreadsheet. For example, the laundry, the kitchen, and the uptick in happiness of more square footage and plumbing, are hard to quantify, dollarwise. Throw in a couple free gifts on the cruises, the magazine, the door magnets that make me smile, and I am very happy with membership even if the raw dollars may not work out wisely. Of course, my financial situation is a bit different than most people who watch every dollar, but I also am not "wealthy".