Disney confirms 'Frozen' makeover coming to Epcot's Norway Pavilion

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
The thought never enters their mind that there are actually creative men and woman out there who could come up with something so unique and creative (if allowed) that it would blow the minds of the average guest..
Which is made doubly bizarre given the worship of Walt Disney Imagineering. They're supposed to be these amazingly talented people but just not too amazingly talented.

It's not box office which determines IPs in the parks now- it's merchandise sales. That's why Stitch was everywhere for awhile; he moved a lot of merchandise. Cars? TONS of merchandise. Conversely, that's why Mulan and Pocahontas only have one meet & greet each- they're the least popular princesses from a merchandise/ marketing standpoint.
Still a metric unrelated to the experience of themed entertainment.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Perhaps, but when you consider how many times a gift shop is located at the exit of an attraction, then it makes sense from an operations/ business standpoint.
It doesn't make sense. The switch to the mall business model did not make the parks suddenly grow by leaps and bounds, killed two people, strained relations with China, crippled Euro Disney SCA and requires massive lump sum investments to keep going.
 

Chris82

Well-Known Member
As we spend money at the parks on new attractions that are based on known intellectual property and brands, the likelihood of their success is greater. So when we increase Toy Story’s presence or other Pixar presence, when we put Frozen in the parks, when we grow Star Wars presence, which we will do significantly, when we do it with Princess, for instance, you’re going to see, I think, basically better bets being made that pay off, that are more likely to pay off for us than some of the bets that were made in the past. - Bob Iger, Quarter 3, Fiscal Year 2014 Earnings Call

Wow is this ever a depressing quote. It's sort of like Santa Claus telling you directly that there will never be a surprise under the Christmas tree.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
But it's not just those who just seem to instinctively defend Disney, those who I would say are more fans of Disney as a name and brand (with a focus on the studio) than themed entertainment. I know @RSoxNo1 is not someone who just wants whatever Disney does, but he still speaks in the language of inherent inferiority. What other object of affection has such dismissal from its fans? People who are into wine don't go around saying wine should follow beer. Football fans don't want the sport to follow baseball. Movie fans don't say all films should be based on books. But fixed amusements fans love to dismiss their fandom as pointless and stupid. No love. No respect.
I literally wrote an article condemning the trend towards IP based attractions. It's a dangerous creative avenue that Disney is taking. But the answer isn't to eliminate IP based attractions all together, the answer is a healthy blend. A fairytale property like Frozen is more than suitable for a themed entertainment environment. Just not in the Norway Pavilion.
 

NearTheEars

Well-Known Member

Man, so when you believe something that is also of the popular opinion, do you argue with yourself and Question how it's even possible that you would believe a popular opinion. Must be tiresome.

Would you like us to post links to respected film critics? Or are they just falling for the popular opinion also?

Why can't we just agree that film, like most entertainment is subjective. And in this case, a large portion of the population enjoyed this one. Doesn't mean you have to agree with the majority.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Wow is this ever a depressing quote. It's sort of like Santa Claus telling you directly that there will never be a surprise under the Christmas tree.
Depressing. And so conservative and defensive.

I think Iger's thoughts here are being led too much by mistakes in the recent past that didn't pay off, the string of non-IP driven failures of Eisner's second decade, DCA 1.0, DAK 1.0, individual underwhelming rides. And too little by the successes of earlier non IP-dominated parks and rides, that did pay off, astonishingly well: WDW, MK, EPCOT, Pirates, Soarin'.

Disneyland and the MK, even EPCOT, are still the greatest properties Disney ever produced. I wouldn't make them subordinate to frickle IPs, to the currently fashionable IP-driven lands, whose longevity has yet to be proven. New Orleans Square is going strong into its sixth decade. Will Cars Land prove to be as long-lasting?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I literally wrote an article condemning the trend towards IP based attractions. It's a dangerous creative avenue that Disney is taking. But the answer isn't to eliminate IP based attractions all together, the answer is a healthy blend. A fairytale property like Frozen is more than suitable for a themed entertainment environment. Just not in the Norway Pavilion.
This whole notion of needing a blend is still the language of inherent inferiority. The parks don't need IP and franchises, they are more than capable of surviving on their own. If a concept aligns with a property, then it is guided by its experience. Even saying that genres (fairytales) should apply is the same sort of external metric. Frozen is only suitable if a concept naturally aligns with its content, a path that is going to much more rigorous in its selection process and one that really isn't going to often align with stories focused on interpersonal relationships set in a rather inconsequential place.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
This whole notion of needing a blend is still the language of inherent inferiority. The parks don't need IP and franchises, they are more than capable of surviving on their own. If a concept aligns with a property, then it is guided by its experience. Even saying that genres (fairytales) should apply is the same sort of external metric. Frozen is only suitable if a concept naturally aligns with its content, a path that is going to much more rigorous in its selection process and one that really isn't going to often align with stories focused on interpersonal relationships set in a rather inconsequential place.
Yes, but there is a but. Disney's themed entertainment is driven by pre-existing popular mental property. That is, it takes existing concepts of places and design and transponds these into lands and themed areas.

You ride what you know at Disney, even if non-movie IP: steamtrains, steamships, rockets. Through worlds you already know, the exotic locales of 40s/50s adventure movies, or the frontier as imagined through Westerns, books, popular imagery of the Old West. Disney themed entertainment is derivative. It is not a big leap to make the parks derivates of IP and franchises.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Yes, but there is a but. Disney's themed entertainment is driven by pre-existing popular mental property. That is, it takes existing concepts of places and design and transponds these into lands and themed areas.

You ride what you know at Disney, even if non-movie IP: steamtrains, steamships, rockets. Through worlds you already know, the exotic locales of 40s/50s adventure movies, or the frontier as imagined through Westerns, books, popular imagery of the Old West. Disney themed entertainment is derivative. It is not a big leap to make the parks derivates of IP and franchises.
Intellectual property is not the same as a general idea or concept. One cannot get a patent on a vague concept or claim copyright to a general idea. This notion of general concepts being intellectual property completely nullifies the entire premise of intellectual property. Almost everything is derived, but improving an existing invention is still grounds for getting your own patent. Everyone studies precedents, but that doesn't mean all subsequent work should be dismissed.
 

Jones14

Well-Known Member
I literally wrote an article condemning the trend towards IP based attractions. It's a dangerous creative avenue that Disney is taking. But the answer isn't to eliminate IP based attractions all together, the answer is a healthy blend. A fairytale property like Frozen is more than suitable for a themed entertainment environment. Just not in the Norway Pavilion.
Do you have a link to that article?
 

Chris82

Well-Known Member
Depressing. And so conservative and defensive.

I think Iger's thoughts here are being led too much by mistakes in the recent past that didn't pay off, the string of non-IP driven failures of Eisner's second decade, DCA 1.0, DAK 1.0, individual underwhelming rides. And too little by the successes of earlier non IP-dominated parks and rides, that did pay off, astonishingly well: WDW, MK, EPCOT, Pirates, Soarin'.

Disneyland and the MK, even EPCOT, are still the greatest properties Disney ever produced. I wouldn't make them subordinate to frickle IPs, to the currently fashionable IP-driven lands, whose longevity has yet to be proven. New Orleans Square is going strong into its sixth decade. Will Cars Land prove to be as long-lasting?

It's true that IP-driven stuff runs the risk of becoming outdated (how did Twister survive that long over at Universal? Yeesh...), although I would argue that some non-IP stuff runs that same risk (original Epcot attractions, Tomorrowland stuff, etc). But I've been thinking. For me personally, the reason that Iger's quote is so depressing is not that IP is inherently bad to me. After all, I love MuppetVision 3D, Tower of Terror, Indiana Jones Adventure, and Splash Mountain, all of which are arguably "IP-driven" to some extent. What's depressing is the attitude that Disney seems to be taking with it's IP-driven stuff lately. It's a mindset question.

Instead of asking the question, "What is the fantasy at the root of this franchise and how can we bring that to life for our guests?" Disney seems to be asking "What is the least risky thing we can do to satisfy fans of an existing franchise?" Take Ariel's Incredibly Bland Undersea Whatever at Magic Kingdom - the ride could've been like Peter Pan and taken you under the sea into another world. We could've gone exploring with Ariel, or been dazzled by Triton's kingdom, or any number of things. Instead it's a bunch of dioramas asking the question, "Hey, remember that scene from the movie? Wasn't that great?!" Little kids will get to point and cry "ARIEL!" and their job is done. They can spend money on detail and theming and "story" and make everything quite attractive, but they somehow completely miss the heart of the thing, which suggests they weren't even trying. The ride brings nothing to the table other than it's connection to an IP.

The reason, I think, that people like me are so distrustful of rides based on existing franchises isn't that the rides CAN'T be awesome, it's that they frequently AREN'T, because they don't have to be. The fact of being a Frozen ride or a Star Wars ride is enough to bring people in all by itself, so the pressure to generate awesome is lessened, and the result is blandness, or worse, something involving chili dog smellitzers. And all the signs are that Frozen Ever After will be just as bland as anything else they've done lately, although I could definitely be wrong, of course. What emotional connection will it make with people who aren't Frozen fans, if any? You don't have to know anything about Indiana Jones to appreciate the Temple of the Forbidden Eye, or anything about Star Wars to appreciate Wacky Space Adventures with Peewee-Herman-Droid. There was enough awesome for everyone. Will there be enough awesome in Frozen Ever After that even non-Frozen fans be able to go on an adventure, or experience a fantasy? I hope so, but I remain apprehensive.

(And by the way, I think Cars Land has a chance to survive, because even without the talking cars it's still a love letter to Route 66 and classic automobiles, which goes beyond a particular franchise)
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
what frozen castle?? no frozen castle happening here........ as for Akershus that is the only dining area as is and there's been rumors of changes but nothing concrete. (personally I would like to see the princess zoo moved elsewhere, I just dont see how they are going to handle all this but then they didn't think with their heads on so.......) anyway Elsa's Eatery has been floating around whether that means a replacement or something new entirely I don't know....The frozen merch has been moved into the back room of the main store, at the rides exit of course...beyond that not aware of any new merch areas in the new meetngreet building etc..
castle as in inside the Frozen building at Epcot.

someone claims they were going to build a new dinning area there.

That baffles me.
 

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