Came THIS close to buying DVC

[flynnibus]

I am not making an assumption of any kind. I am stating fact that by using the banked points in the next year's reservation first, you can continue to build the amount of points you are banking. What you are saying is only the case if you plan to use no points in the following year.

Which is exactly what the example stated...

 

[slappy magoo]

You missed the second line where I said I want to skip a trip in year 2 to make a bigger trip in year 3. The argument is always 'you dont have to travel every year...'.

I'm assuming the argument here was "Points can only be banked for one year. So you can't keep picking up all the pieces until you get enough to make a reservation. You have to use it in the following year.. or try to rent them. But to rent them, they need to be enough points to actually make a reservation that works." Because that's what you wrote. If you're making a different argument beyond the one you're making, you should work harder to not make the argument you're making the argument you're making, but rather the one you're not making.

And when you rent, I think I missed a point about combining rental points. I thought you could not combine points from many sources into a single reservation. But maybe it's possible to do so after the 7m window? Can you confirm that for me?

THx

If I have spare points I need to "use or lose" - they can't be banked any more and they're not enough for me to use for a trip - but YOU are a DVC member and you need a few extra points to have the trip you want to take (the length of time you want and at the resort you want), there is a way that I can arrange through DVC to let you lose those points for that one time. I can do it out of the goodness of my heart, or rent them or trade them for other points down the line. There might not be a way for you to borrow points from multiple sources in one trip, but that wasn't the argument *I* was making.

 

[flynnibus]

I'd be interested in links to your reports about Disney subsidizing DVD property expenses

It's right there in every DVC property's budget. A line for 'Developer Subsidies'

Developer Subsidy - In an effort to afford all existing Owners and current Purchasers with a fair and equitable dues assessment, Disney Vacation Development, Inc. ("DVD"), has agreed to subsidize the estimated Annual Operating Budget. DVD does not make any commitment that it will add additional phases to the Condominium or that it will elect to subsidize the Annual Operating Budget in future budget years. The obligation of DVD to provide this subsidy is a matter of private contract among DVD, current Purchasers and the Association (as to existing Owners). DVD reserves the right to discontinue offering this subsidized operating assessment in the future.

Looking at the 2012 numbers, it looks like most properties now are not getting any subsidies, but was not so in the past.

The subsidized dues come from Vero and Aulani because they had major changes to their dues structures after people had already purchased

Properties like SSR have had subsidies in the past too.

But to answer my question.. looks like DVD gives themselves an out right there in the budget explanations. So if prospective buyers read the budget, they'll see it.

 

[Phonedave]

You missed the second line where I said I want to skip a trip in year 2 to make a bigger trip in year 3. The argument is always 'you dont have to travel every year...'.

And when you rent, I think I missed a point about combining rental points. I thought you could not combine points from many sources into a single reservation. But maybe it's possible to do so after the 7m window? Can you confirm that for me?

THx

You can still go every other year, you just have to plan.

Again, a 100 point contract

Year 1 - bank them to year 2
Year 2 - Take the 100 year 1 banked points, the 100 year 2 points, and BORROW 100 from year 3 and go on a 300 point vacation
Year 3 - sit home because you borrowed these
Year 4 - Bank them two year 5
Year 5 - Use 100 from year 4, 100 from year 5, and 100 borrowed from year 6

Yes, of course there are stiuations that can be devised when you may end up with some points that you just can't use and you loose them. But if perform some modicum of planning, it should not happen.

As for combining points, you get one transfer per contract per year. So you could combine points, however you would have to get the contract owners to agree to do so.

You could of course make a bunch of seperate reservations. But that is a royal pain.

-dave

 

[flynnibus]

I'm assuming the argument here was "Points can only be banked for one year. So you can't keep picking up all the pieces until you get enough to make a reservation. You have to use it in the following year.. or try to rent them. But to rent them, they need to be enough points to actually make a reservation that works." Because that's what you wrote. If you're making a different argument beyond the one you're making, you should work harder to not make the argument you're making the argument you're making, but rather the one you're not making.

You're taking things out of context. The last post was referring to people making arguements about how you don't need to travel frequently because of bank/borrow. My earlier post was about residual points and the problems they create when you don't travel every year.

If I have spare points I need to "use or lose" - they can't be banked any more and they're not enough for me to use for a trip - but YOU are a DVC member and you need a few extra points to have the trip you want to take (the length of time you want and at the resort you want), there is a way that I can arrange through DVC to let you lose those points for that one time.

Are you referring to a transfer of points?

 

[flynnibus]

You can still go every other year, you just have to plan.

You are referring to the 'go every 3rd year' plan. And as you said, it requires planning.. basically you gotta pick what pattern you want to follow. I am aware of the 3 year cycle, but the post was to illustrate the scenario someone wasn't following how you get residual points. I know there are ways to avoid it, but the post was to illustrate what can happen with what happens with simple 'skip a year' scenarios.

As for combining points, you get one transfer per contract per year. So you could combine points, however you would have to get the contract owners to agree to do so.

You could of course make a bunch of seperate reservations. But that is a royal pain.

-dave

This is in effect where I was getting to. If you want to vacation how you want to... DVC is a bit too rigid.

I think the best way to look at DVC is 'its a pre-paid vacation' - not a discount plan. By agreeing to pay for all your vacations up front, you get a discount in return. But like most pre-paid deals, you already paid, so you gotta 'use it or lose it'. Renting doesn't really work for fractional left-overs.. you gotta really rent out a full trip to make it worthwhile to the other party. And when Disney changed the rules on people and limited transfers.. transfers became far less of a viable solution.

 

[Blueliner]

Possible Solution for Captain Kidd

We struggled with the DVC question for years. In fact, we got started on our due diligence in 2007, and I have the "Dreams" hard cover book that shows AKL as being under construction with concept art, etc.

It was not until this time last year that we finally decided to buy in. It was a difficult decision, in no small part because we very much prefer to stay on property but had never stayed in a deluxe resort. We had no problem staying at Pop Century, figuring we would be in the parks most of the time anyway. However, we absolutely loved the Epcot Resorts area and daydreamed about the added space of a villa and the ability to walk or ride a boat to two of the parks.

Ultimately, we bought resale at Boardwalk Villas. We bought 240 points (with 240 points banked from 2010), at $67 per point. The cost was just north of $17,500.00, after factoring in the closing costs and up front annual dues. My math was not terribly complex. I divided that $17,500 by 31 years to get a "purchase price" of about $575 per year. Adding in the annual dues of approximately $1,350.00 per year (without taking into account inflationary pressures), we are looking at around $1,925 per year. For that price, we can stay at the Boardwalk in a 2BR Villa for 5-6 nights per year.

Our first trip as members was in November, and it is difficult to articulate the feeling we had pulling in and knowing we could come back again for years to come. It also is difficult to place a value on how a villa can reduce the stress in the family by giving everyone some extra elbow room.

On top of that, we have been able to bank points, such that we plan to spend 4 nights in a 2BR at the Grand Californian Villas next spring break, while still being able to take our November trip to the Boardwalk. We will continue to go to WDW in November and bank points, and then we plan to hit Aulani for a week in a garden view room in about 3 years (by borrowing points). In the 4 years after the Aulani trip, we will have to do some borrowing to take our November trips, but we will be back to banking after that. The CA and HI trips are things we likely would not have even considered without having found a good resale contract with a full year of banked points.

Believe it or not, for us one of the appealing aspects of the Boardwalk was the fact that the contract expires in 2042. In other words, our commitment to the annual dues is for only 30 years. Captainkidd, you would be in the same situation buying resale at Wilderness Lodge. Would that help with the anxiety over locking in to DVC for an extended period of time?

Trust me, I was with you on the cost-benefit analysis for a very long time. However, my sense is that if you feel you can find a good deal on points, you will be happy with the purchase.

 

[googilycub]

Sigh, another thread about how DVC doesn't work. We get it, you don't like DVC, you can't make the numbers work, you think it is a rip off, you are jealous of people who can afford DVC, or whatever the issue is of the day. I have never met a DVC owner who will tell you that ownership is for everyone, so why do some people insist that it is for no one? :shrug: Many of us see that the numbers DO work for some of us, if looking at the long term.

 

[flynnibus]

Trust me, I was with you on the cost-benefit analysis for a very long time. However, my sense is that if you feel you can find a good deal on points, you will be happy with the purchase.

Wow, thanks for sharing your story. Getting in at 67 pp for a park-connected property sure sounds lucrative compared to the 150+ Disney is selling now. Congrats on your purchase.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

Wow, thanks for sharing your story. Getting in at 67 pp for a park-connected property sure sounds lucrative compared to the 150+ Disney is selling now. Congrats on your purchase.

I paid 76 a point for Animal Kingdom in 2010.

 

[flynnibus]

I paid 76 a point for Animal Kingdom in 2010.

Nice

I'm not a fan of the AKL lodge simply due to it's location and isolation. Something like the Beach/Yacht/BW area is sexy because of it's ability to flex and go a variety of places by foot which is pleasant.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

Nice

I'm not a fan of the AKL lodge simply due to it's location and isolation. Something like the Beach/Yacht/BW area is sexy because of it's ability to flex and go a variety of places by foot which is pleasant.

I like it, but I also stay elsewhere when I want to as long as I plan in advance. The price was right and I wanted something that had a later contract date than 2042, and BLT didn't appeal to me at all because of it's high price (even on the resale market).

 

[Blueliner]

Wow, thanks for sharing your story. Getting in at 67 pp for a park-connected property sure sounds lucrative compared to the 150+ Disney is selling now. Congrats on your purchase.

Thanks. We determined fairly early in the process that we only could make DVC work if we paid at resale prices.

 

[captainkidd]

Sigh, another thread about how DVC doesn't work. We get it, you don't like DVC, you can't make the numbers work, you think it is a rip off, you are jealous of people who can afford DVC, or whatever the issue is of the day. I have never met a DVC owner who will tell you that ownership is for everyone, so why do some people insist that it is for no one? :shrug: Many of us see that the numbers DO work for some of us, if looking at the long term.

I don't see anyone saying anything like that. :shrug:

 

[Cosmic Commando]

This is just a guess from a non-owner, but the developer subsidy could be a way to shield "early adopters" from undue burden when the resort is only partially sold. When a resort is sold out, then you hire more housekeepers, more front desk staff, etc. but some of the costs of the resort are relatively fixed whether a resort is 10% sold or 95% sold. For example, the landscaping is relatively unaffected by the occupancy level. Whether you have one check-in clerk or ten, the lights at the front desk need to be on, and there always needs to be a lifeguard during normal hours, etc. So I'm betting any developer (not just Disney) often must subsidize resort operations at the beginning in order to keep the lights on while giving the early members the dues they were promised. Just a guess.

 

[RSD Part Deux]

Wow, thanks for sharing your story. Getting in at 67 pp for a park-connected property sure sounds lucrative compared to the 150+ Disney is selling now. Congrats on your purchase.

There are even better contracts out there if you have patience and know what rabbit holes to look in.

I got a Boardwalk contract at $52/pp all closing costs and dues paid by seller, and had 75 banked points.

 

[googilycub]

I don't see anyone saying anything like that. :shrug:

Really?



"I'm glad you posted your numbers/experience about the DVC because I'm sorry to say, I have always felt who ever bought into the DVC was a complete sucker! Now I know I will be killed on here for saying that, but it's the truth!! I really do feel bad for these people who spent their hard earned money to buy into this complete Disney rip off that doesn't even come with room service...You've been had DVC owners...."

 

[alissafalco]

googilycub
don't blame Captiankid for something I said...:shrug:

 

[tjkraz]

Take some ficticious numbers to illustrate the point. Let's say I have 200 points.

• In year one I book a trip that costs me 189 points - leaving me 11 points to bank into year two
• In year two, I want to bank my points so that in year three I can take a bigger vacation
• But I can't push those 11 points forward into year three. So I either need to let them expire, or I need to take enough of my year two 200 points and use them in year 2 to make a minimum sized reservation that I use myself or rent out.

If those are your immediate plans, the first question that comes to my mind is why did you buy 200 points in the first place? With plans to use 189 points in Year 1 and zero points in Year 2, why buy what is clearly an excess right from the start?

With a (cheaper) 180 point purchase, travels for Year 1 include all 180 current points and 9 borrowed from Year 2. 171 remaining points from Year 2 are banked and available for Year 3.

In Year 3 you then have available 171 from Year 2, 180 from Year 3 and 180 which can be borrowed from Year 4.

I cannot speak for all DVC owners but these issues have never plagued me. In 8+ years of owning we have never lost a single point. If we have excess points, we upgrade to a more expensive resort / view or add a night to our scheduled stay. If we don't have enough points we borrow from the next year, take a short trip or stay in a cheaper location.

 

[tjkraz]

It's right there in every DVC property's budget. A line for 'Developer Subsidies'



Looking at the 2012 numbers, it looks like most properties now are not getting any subsidies, but was not so in the past.



Properties like SSR have had subsidies in the past too.

But to answer my question.. looks like DVD gives themselves an out right there in the budget explanations. So if prospective buyers read the budget, they'll see it.

You misunderstand the nature of a subsidy.

While in active sales, Disney Vacation Development typically subsidizes dues on all properties. As another poster pointed out, subsidies exist to ensure that a small number of owners do not bear the full burden of an amenity designed for a much larger population of guests.

Take a pool, for example. When Kidani Village first opened, the pool had to be fully staffed and maintained regardless of the number of swimmers. Even if DVD had only sold 15% of the points, 100% of the pool expenses must be paid. That's where a subsidy comes into play. The developer helps offset the extraordinary expenses so that the 15% owners do not pay 100% of the costs.

Yes, all resorts have been subsidized to some degree in their early years of sales. In most cases those subsidies drop off over time. There are two exceptions:

1. Vero Beach. When first planned the Vero resorts was designed to be about twice the size it ended up being. Disney later scaled back plans. However, given the construction promises made during some of the early sales presentations, some early buyers received a subsidy to offset the unexpected fees. In other words, early buyers were told they would be sharing expenses like pool, front desk, maintenance, etc. with "X" owners and it ended up being about 1/2 of "X". DVD uses a subsidy to compensate for the reduction in the resort's scope.

2. Aulani. Disney apparently made errors in the original budget calculation for Aulani. Those who bought before the errors were discovered will receive a subsidy to compensate for the error.

There is nothing underhanded or deceptive about the existence of a developer subsidy.