Buyer Beware - Renting Points

[GoofGoof]

I'm with @Minthorne here. If you paid to rent points and the owner is keeping your money then you are entitled to the points whether you plan to use them or not. How did he get the points back? If he doesn't want to give you a refund then you should have the right to at least try to sell the points to someone else (which you said he offered). Maybe you will get another job between now and when the insurance claim goes through and decide to take the trip.

Once the insurance company gets involved I would assume that they would want the rights to the room if they are going to reimburse you for it. Even if it goes unused. It would be a bad business practice to allow the original owner to have the points back. That would be a big red flag for insurance fraud.

 

[squidward]

Once the insurance company gets involved I would assume that they would want the rights to the room if they are going to reimburse you for it. Even if it goes unused. It would be a bad business practice to allow the original owner to have the points back. That would be a big red flag for insurance fraud.

That's the part I don't get. I mean, someone could make an entire living with this scam. There are literally hundreds of different travel insurance companies.

The truth is, I'm just bitter because the seller was of no help (which I admit, he didn't have to be), but that he gets away with all that money for nothing. Sorry, the 15 minutes of his time wasn't worth the amount of money he made. It just doesn't seem right.

 

[lebeau]

That's the part I don't get. I mean, someone could make an entire living with this scam. There are literally hundreds of different travel insurance companies.

The truth is, I'm just bitter because the seller was of no help (which I admit, he didn't have to be), but that he gets away with all that money for nothing. Sorry, the 15 minutes of his time wasn't worth the amount of money he made. It just doesn't seem right.

I don't think the guy is going to get to use his points. He made a reservation in your name. If he cancels the reservation, you're entitled to a refund. By not giving you a refund, he is indicating he is not cancelling the reservation.

Someone who knows the intricacies of rental agreements can probably fill in the details better. But I don't get the impression this guy is scamming your or the insurance company or anyone else. He just doesn't want to be bothered with a situation that he had no hand in making. It sucks, but he set that expectation right up front. No refunds means no refunds.

Hopefully everything works out for you.

 

[flynnibus]

I don't think the guy is going to get to use his points. He made a reservation in your name. If he cancels the reservation, you're entitled to a refund.

On what grounds? I doubt there is any such protection in there. The seller, not DVC, is the one promising in the contract to provide the rental. The status of the seller's reservation would be independent as long as he delivers on the arrangement. AKA he could book it months later as long as he still was able to deliver. Additionally, the buyer is already saying they want to terminate the agreement. So he terminates the agreement and that is that.. he doesn't have to keep holding the reservation AFTER both parties have terminated the agreement.

If you sign a apartment lease.. and then terminate it.. they don't keep the apartment empty simply because you didn't get a refund. You get charged for what you agreed to pay, and the commodity is put back into the market.

 

[lebeau]

On what grounds? I doubt there is any such protection in there. The seller, not DVC, is the one promising in the contract to provide the rental. The status of the seller's reservation would be independent as long as he delivers on the arrangement. AKA he could book it months later as long as he still was able to deliver. Additionally, the buyer is already saying they want to terminate the agreement. So he terminates the agreement and that is that.. he doesn't have to keep holding the reservation AFTER both parties have terminated the agreement.

If you sign a apartment lease.. and then terminate it.. they don't keep the apartment empty simply because you didn't get a refund. You get charged for what you agreed to pay, and the commodity is put back into the market.

Doesn't sound to me like the agreement has been terminated. The seller kept the money and basically told the buyer to deal with the reservation himself. If he wanted to/was able, he could still go on the trip.

 

[GoofGoof]

Doesn't sound to me like the agreement has been terminated. The seller kept the money and basically told the buyer to deal with the reservation himself. If he wanted to/was able, he could still go on the trip.

The seller also told the renter that he could look into renting the points to someone else, but he wasn't going to do it for him. If the seller keeps the money and the points just go wasted then he is in the right. If he uses the points or re-rents them its unethical.

If you sign a apartment lease.. and then terminate it.. they don't keep the apartment empty simply because you didn't get a refund. You get charged for what you agreed to pay, and the commodity is put back into the market.

Depends on the lease. In a lot of cases in my area the owner keeps your deposit and then charges you for any months left on the lease if the apartment stays unrented. If they ate able to re-rent the apartment then you don't need to pay for those months. I have several friends who rent homes that use these type of leases.

If the point owner can't or chooses not to re-rent the points then there is nothing the renter can really do about it. If the owner either re-rents the points or uses them himself that is just sleazy.

This scenario is exactly why I own DVC points instead of rent and I have no current plans to rent my points out.

 

[Phonedave]

If I was the seller: I would offer to help the buyer out. If rent points on a regular basis, I have better access to a community of potential renters. I would make no promises, and if it did not re-rent, the buyer would still be on the hook, but just because I am a nice guy, I would try and re-rent the points. (but I am under no obligation to do so).

If I was the buyer: I would let the seller know that I do not EXPECT him to help me, but if he did I would greatly appreciate it. I would also work my end to try and get the points re-rented as well. If the seller did offer to help me, I would find some way to compensate him - restocking fee, word of mouth advertising, etc.


-dave

 

[flynnibus]

Doesn't sound to me like the agreement has been terminated. The seller kept the money and basically told the buyer to deal with the reservation himself. If he wanted to/was able, he could still go on the trip.

Agreed - if he hasn't backed out completely - but if he does... the owner can take his money and do what he wants with the reservation.

Sounds to me like the owner is just washing his hands of it and is happy to just let the points goto waste. Which in itself seems stupid because which seems easier???
- Having the buyer find another renter.. then that renter needs to communicate with both the OP and the owner.. and then the new renter will probably want an agreement with the owner, not the OP.. so now the owner needs to start over again

or simply
- terminating the arrangement with the OP, find a new renter and entering an agreement with them.. and get paid again.

The first situation involves dealing with a 3 way conversation.. and changing the DVC reservation again.. and not getting paid for any of it beyond what you already did. Plus having a 3 parties involved.

While the second is just a simple rental and the guy gets paid again.

As someone said earlier.. maybe the owner already spent the money. Making the idea of returning it an issue for him. Otherwise a reasonable person would find a middle ground and just move on.

 

[flynnibus]

Depends on the lease. In a lot of cases in my area the owner keeps your deposit and then charges you for any months left on the lease if the apartment stays unrented. If they ate able to re-rent the apartment then you don't need to pay for those months. I have several friends who rent homes that use these type of leases.

Sure but in none of those cases do they keep the place empty simply because someone forfeited their lease. They are giving some slack to the person who broke the lease by letting back the funds if it's leased again.

If the point owner can't or chooses not to re-rent the points then there is nothing the renter can really do about it. If the owner either re-rents the points or uses them himself that is just sleazy.

Not if they terminate the agreement. If they let it just sit there.. sure, renting again without terminating the first would be bad.. but that's not gonna happen. The risks outweigh the rewards of doing that.

If the OP sits back and does nothing... he could do that to keep the seller from gaining.. but the longer they want to do something, the worse off their chance of getting any money back.

This is why I don't book non-refundable things.

 

[flynnibus]

If I was the seller: I would offer to help the buyer out. If rent points on a regular basis, I have better access to a community of potential renters. I would make no promises, and if it did not re-rent, the buyer would still be on the hook, but just because I am a nice guy, I would try and re-rent the points. (but I am under no obligation to do so).

If I was the buyer: I would let the seller know that I do not EXPECT him to help me, but if he did I would greatly appreciate it. I would also work my end to try and get the points re-rented as well. If the seller did offer to help me, I would find some way to compensate him - restocking fee, word of mouth advertising, etc.


-dave

This is simply the reasonable thing to do...

 

[Minthorne]

Agreed - if he hasn't backed out completely - but if he does... the owner can take his money and do what he wants with the reservation.

Why would the buyer back out completely if they didn't get a refund. There is no future financial obligation (unlike a lease) to back out of. In fact the buyer can't back out - since there is no refund there is no way to back out. All the buyer can do is forfeit (or gift) the points/reservation back to the seller by cancelling the contract with no refund. Sounds like the Buyer doesn't want the seller to get the points for free. They paid for the room - and the room may go empty - but the seller can't just use it unless the buyer lets him. And that would be a foolish move.

 

[nolatron]

What I was wondering, is there a time limit to when an insurance claim can be filed from booking? Why cancel so fast?

Your points are bought and the room is booked. Who knows what will happen between now and 10 months from now. You may land another job before then.

If it was me I'd hang on to the reservation for a few more months and then file a claim if it was absolute necessary to cancel.

 

[flynnibus]

Why would the buyer back out completely if they didn't get a refund. There is no future financial obligation (unlike a lease) to back out of. In fact the buyer can't back out - since there is no refund there is no way to back out.

There should be termination clauses in any agreement. If the buyer wants to hold on for spite since they are getting no refund.. and instead just be a no-show.. their right too. But it's not going to advance their cause in anyway.

Both sides stalemating doesn't help either side.. it's just the lazy response from the seller.

Honestly I'd be more worried about getting in a 3way engagement if I were the buyer. I'd push to just cancel and ask to pay a penalty so that the seller can actually rent his points out before it becomes a problem.

 

[squidward]

There should be termination clauses in any agreement. If the buyer wants to hold on for spite since they are getting no refund.. and instead just be a no-show.. their right too. But it's not going to advance their cause in anyway.

Both sides stalemating doesn't help either side.. it's just the lazy response from the seller.

Honestly I'd be more worried about getting in a 3way engagement if I were the buyer. I'd push to just cancel and ask to pay a penalty so that the seller can actually rent his points out before it becomes a problem.

That was my thought, but he wouldn't have any of it. I should add, the insurance company has accepted my claim. What happens from there, as far as the seller goes, I don't know. He's been asking me the status of the insurance claim, so my guess is he is anxious to cancel the reservation, get the points back, and make another $5,000.

 

[flynnibus]

That was my thought, but he wouldn't have any of it. I should add, the insurance company has accepted my claim. What happens from there, as far as the seller goes, I don't know. He's been asking me the status of the insurance claim, so my guess is he is anxious to cancel the reservation, get the points back, and make another $5,000.

I'm kind of surprised the insurance is letting you claim it this early honestly.. and what represents your cancellation?

Everyone keeps saying you haven't broken off your agreement, but how can you have an agreement still in place which would grant you use of the property, and be able to make an insurance claim 11m in advance? To make the insurance claim, presumably you would have to have no chance of using the place since it hasn't actually transpired yet.

 

[squidward]

I'm kind of surprised the insurance is letting you claim it this early honestly.. and what represents your cancellation?

Everyone keeps saying you haven't broken off your agreement, but how can you have an agreement still in place which would grant you use of the property, and be able to make an insurance claim 11m in advance? To make the insurance claim, presumably you would have to have no chance of using the place since it hasn't actually transpired yet.

All that was asked for was proof payment, notice that said NO REFUNDS, and notice of termination of my employment. I specifically bought an insurance package that covered me in case of loss of employment.

 

[GoofGoof]

That was my thought, but he wouldn't have any of it. I should add, the insurance company has accepted my claim. What happens from there, as far as the seller goes, I don't know. He's been asking me the status of the insurance claim, so my guess is he is anxious to cancel the reservation, get the points back, and make another $5,000.

In that case once you get the money from the insurance company you are at least made whole. If you really wanted to you could stick it to the seller by forcing the points to go wasted. If I were you I would just walk away. If the guy wants to double dip and rent the points again he'll get paid twice, but karma is a "female dog". It will come back to bite him eventually. Since the insurance company wants nothing to do with the points and they are now technically the one who "paid" for them the owner should just donate the points to charity and make someone else's day

 

[Minthorne]

All that was asked for was proof payment, notice that said NO REFUNDS, and notice of termination of my employment. I specifically bought an insurance package that covered me in case of loss of employment.

So if you never tell the seller couldn't you double dip and have the room for free now?

 

[squidward]

Since the insurance company wants nothing to do with the points and they are now technically the one who "paid" for them the owner should just donate the points to charity and make someone else's day

Actually, I could do the same, couldn't I? I could donate the room to Make A Wish or something. But that would be fraud I'm guessing.

If I thought the seller had a heart, I'd try and work with him to do something like that.

 

[squidward]

So if you never tell the seller couldn't you double dip and have the room for free now?

I suppose so. I'd never do that though. It's not in me to be that type of person.