An unpopular FP opinion?

[MSC]

I'm new around here, as my post count will attest. And I am guessing this will be a unpopular opinion. But I need to lodge a complaint about the "fast" pass system.

Just got back from 7 days at WDW. It was awesome. I took advantage of lots of FP, but also stood in lots of lines. (Though it was a late planned trip, so didn't score FP for most of the really popular rides). Waited for Avatar twice for about 90 minutes each. I have no complaints about that. An amusement park veteran, I've waited longer than that for a new rollercoaster many times.

What I have no patience for is a "standby time" prediction that is off by, oh...... AN HOUR or so.

Yesterday, we got in line for the 7 Dwarves Mine Ride outside the actual q, snaking along the outside wall, with "60" minutes on the standby sign. By the time we actually got to back to the sign at the start of the actual q, it said "70" minutes. We've never ridden the ride before, so we didnt know what to expect from looking at the line. But the ride was running continuously, so there were no mechanical delays. We got on the ride nearly 2 hours later.

Which is, whatever. A rare Disney incompetence? So they messed up in predicting the time. I can forgive. But it's not rocket science. You look at the q, see where the end is, and you should know how long it typically takes to get on the ride from there; amusement parks have been doing it that way for years.

But what really set me off was seeing FPers practically walk right on to the ride. I think Disney is making a mistake there. When you have a nearly two hour standby wait, a FP should make the wait "faster," say, 20 minutes, not instantaneous. Hell, even with a posted 60 minute wait, I don't think 15-20 wait for FPers is too much. I wouldn't complain.

Granted, as I said, I didn't get FPs for something like FOP, so maybe they do have a short line for these in demand rides. But they didn't seem to for 7 Dwarves and it really struck me as odd. I think Disney could do better here.

 

[Rob562]

I'd prefer not to get into the pros/cons of the FastPass system, which never really gets anywhere on here, but figured I'd chime in with one possibility for what you observed.

It's possible that while the ride didn't have any downtime while you were in line, it had been down earlier before you got there. In that instance, anyone with a FP for the down time can use it later after it came back up. A sudden influx of more FP holders than the usual ratio makes for a tricky balancing situation by the CM at Merge, walking the line between keeping the FP Return line from spilling out into the main walkway, while also trying to keep Standby moving.

-Rob

 

[sjhym333]

I would also add that the movement of the FP and Standby Lines is directly affected by whoever is grouping. Having worked a major FP attraction my motto was always: if the FP line is very short I will let larger groups of Standby guests into the line to try to keep the standby line moving. It barely slows down the FP guests but helps the standby line. Not every CM did that. Some follow the protocol of so many standby guest to FP guests. Some are kind of merciless about it. I think a good grouper can find a great balance of keeping both lines moving without causing problems. Though I no longer work for Disney I am an AP holder and I am always find it fascinating watching groupers work. Even today I see groupers who will hold back the standby line to keep to the ratio of FP guests to standby guests even when FP is a walk on. I always appreciate a grouper has the bigger picture in mind. Every guest is a paying guest and if they can help keep the stand by line moving I appreciate it.

 

[MSC]

Interesting. So there's no policy? Just the discretion of the "grouper" or as I would say, the person controlling the merge?

Of course, they are only as good as the information they're given. So if they think it's only a 60 or 70 minute standby line when it's really a 110 minute line, they can't be as efficient as possible.

 

[Coaster Lover]

Interesting. So there's no policy? Just the discretion of the "grouper" or as I would say, the person controlling the merge?

Technically, there is a "policy". Having never worked for Disney, I can only say what I have read, but I believe that the grouper is instructed to put so many FastPassers through per every so many Stand-By queue guests. For example, for some rides, the requirement might be four FastPass guests per every ten Stand-By guests. In such a case, the grouper would let four FastPass guests go, then ten stand by guests, then four FastPass guests, then ten stand-by guests (assuming there was a line for both FastPass and Stand-By and everyone was an individual guest and not a group). However, as you and I know, that's not the way things work in the real world. Sometimes, there is no line in the FastPass and many times, people are grouped up in multiples. I've heard of some cast members who stick to the ratio so perfectly that (in this scenario), if a group of twenty people was in the stand-by queue, the grouper would wait until eight people came through the FastPass line (even if it was a walk on in the FastPass queue).

As for the wait times, Disney calculates wait times based on passes that they send with guests through the line. A cast member at the start of the line scans the pass and hands it to a guest. Before bording, the guest hands the pass to a cast member who scans it again. The computer calculates the time between the scans and uses that to estimate the wait time. I'me sure there may be other variables that go into that, but in its simplest form, when it's working correctly, this typically provides accurate wait times. A change in groupers or a surge in FastPassers (if the ride was previously closed) could certainly impact the wait times.

 

[sjhym333]

Interesting. So there's no policy? Just the discretion of the "grouper" or as I would say, the person controlling the merge?

Of course, they are only as good as the information they're given. So if they think it's only a 60 or 70 minute standby line when it's really a 110 minute line, they can't be as efficient as possible.

No, there is a policy. Each attraction has a ratio like as an example 20 FP guests to every 4 Stand by guests. So that means the grouper counts 20 FP people and then sends a group of 4 standby people and then goes back to the FP line. I am sure you have seen this at attractions where the 2 lines merge. Also the policy is that the FP line always takes priority over the standby line so if the FP line backs up the ratio will change to a higher % for FP guests to standby guests. That is why when an attraction breaks down you may see the Standby Line completely closed down to allow the FP line to thin out when it reopens.

My point is if you are the grouper and there is no one waiting on the FP line or the FP line trickles in then you start moving the standby line by allowing more guests from that line to enter. The concern is if you get a rush of FP guests it can make that line back up and cause guest complaints but a good grouper is able to balance the two lines so both feel like they are moving closer to boarding.

 

[Tuvalu]

It's also important to remember that the wait time posted on the sign is the approximate time FROM THAT SPOT. If the line begins well outside where the sign is (such as the case with 7DMT) you will wait longer than the posted time.

 

[correcaminos]

I have noticed that stand by lines go longer than usual thanks to FP+ It's made a lot of the slightly less crowded times feel worse IMO. The upside is that we wait less for quite a few rides that we wouldn't have gone on otherwise. We do use FP+ to our advantage and skip longer lines. We do have the advantage of going back often enough so if we miss a ride we don't mind as much.

I do agree, the line is from the spot of the sign, not from the end of the ride. They update times based on tracking. That said sometimes they get it wrong. They also a lot of times over estimate waits.

 

[21stamps]

You're right that Amusement parks have been doing this.. but they are often wrong as well. That amount of people in a fast pass line can change the time at any point. As can other factors...child swap being one of them.

Always stinks when it happens. Sorry

 

[MSC]

As for the wait times, Disney calculates wait times based on passes that they send with guests through the line. A cast member at the start of the line scans the pass and hands it to a guest. Before bording, the guest hands the pass to a cast member who scans it again. The computer calculates the time between the scans and uses that to estimate the wait time. I'me sure there may be other variables that go into that, but in its simplest form, when it's working correctly, this typically provides accurate wait times. A change in groupers or a surge in FastPassers (if the ride was previously closed) could certainly impact the wait times.

I saw that happen, and if they really do use that to update posted times, then that's a really poor system. I watched them hand one to the guy in line behind me when the listed wait was 70 mins. When he got on the ride almost 2 hrs later, that badge told them nothing other than that their estimate two hours ago was way off. Also, the fact that it took him almost 2 hrs to get through the line tells them nothing about how long a guest would take if they stepped in to the line when he got on the ride. On the other hand, if they use that as another data point in their algorithms, then I hope it benefits guests in the future.

 

[sjhym333]

I have noticed that stand by lines go longer than usual thanks to FP+ It's made a lot of the slightly less crowded times feel worse IMO. The upside is that we wait less for quite a few rides that we wouldn't have gone on otherwise. We do use FP+ to our advantage and skip longer lines. We do have the advantage of going back often enough so if we miss a ride we don't mind as much.

I do agree, the line is from the spot of the sign, not from the end of the ride. They update times based on tracking. That said sometimes they get it wrong. They also a lot of times over estimate waits.

I am not a fan of FP in general but that is a discussion for another time. However, I think that in today's society every business is looking for ways to combat the biggest complaint that they get from customers...waiting on line. Most major theme parks have a similar system as FP. Even the local supermarket here has a system to order sub sandwiches and cold cuts online that you can then stop in and pick up your order without waiting. I called SeaWorld with a question this week and their system is set up that you can hold your place in line and they will to call you back when your turn comes. And of course the big news this week is that Amazon bought Whole Foods and many supermarket chains are concerned that Amazon will start drawing a big share of shopper who do not want to go to the store and looking for home delivery. People hate waiting and any business that can cut down waiting is in a position to win fans

 

[21stamps]

I am not a fan of FP in general but that is a discussion for another time. However, I think that in today's society every business is looking for ways to combat the biggest complaint that they get from customers...waiting on line. Most major theme parks have a similar system as FP. Even the local supermarket here has a system to order sub sandwiches and cold cuts online that you can then stop in and pick up your order without waiting. I called SeaWorld with a question this week and their system is set up that you can hold your place in line and they will to call you back when your turn comes. And of course the big news this week is that Amazon bought Whole Foods and many supermarket chains are concerned that Amazon will start drawing a big share of shopper who do not want to go to the store and looking for home delivery. People hate waiting and any business that can cut down waiting is in a position to win fans

Agree.
Re: Whole Foods.. the other supermarkets shouldn't be too worried..Publix has offered home delivery for years.. Kroger has curbside pick up.. my favorite part of shopping at Whole Foods is choosing my produce.. I was shocked when I heard about Amazon.. hopefully they don't make any major changes to the chain..or I'll leave WF for Fresh Market exclusively..but I won't complain if I can get some of my items quickly delivered. .

 

[MSC]

It's also important to remember that the wait time posted on the sign is the approximate time FROM THAT SPOT. If the line begins well outside where the sign is (such as the case with 7DMT) you will wait longer than the posted time.

I do agree, the line is from the spot of the sign, not from the end of the ride. They update times based on tracking. That said sometimes they get it wrong. They also a lot of times over estimate waits.

That can't be right. If that were so, those posted times would hardly ever change. The only variable would be the number of FP they give for a particular time period. And if that were so, why would Disney voluntarily permit wait times to vary from 30 mins to 110 minutes?

But agreed that they can overestimate. One line we got in for FOP was posted at 110 or 120, and we were through in 90.

 

[larryz]

I would also add that the movement of the FP and Standby Lines is directly affected by whoever is grouping. Having worked a major FP attraction my motto was always: if the FP line is very short I will let larger groups of Standby guests into the line to try to keep the standby line moving. It barely slows down the FP guests but helps the standby line. Not every CM did that. Some follow the protocol of so many standby guest to FP guests. Some are kind of merciless about it. I think a good grouper can find a great balance of keeping both lines moving without causing problems. Though I no longer work for Disney I am an AP holder and I am always find it fascinating watching groupers work. Even today I see groupers who will hold back the standby line to keep to the ratio of FP guests to standby guests even when FP is a walk on. I always appreciate a grouper has the bigger picture in mind. Every guest is a paying guest and if they can help keep the stand by line moving I appreciate it.

No wonder the grouper is an endangered species...

As for the wait times, Disney calculates wait times based on passes that they send with guests through the line. A cast member at the start of the line scans the pass and hands it to a guest. Before bording, the guest hands the pass to a cast member who scans it again. The computer calculates the time between the scans and uses that to estimate the wait time. I'me sure there may be other variables that go into that, but in its simplest form, when it's working correctly, this typically provides accurate wait times. A change in groupers or a surge in FastPassers (if the ride was previously closed) could certainly impact the wait times.

I thought I read somewhere that this archaic system bit the dust earlier this year...?

 

[correcaminos]

That can't be right. If that were so, those posted times would hardly ever change. The only variable would be the number of FP they give for a particular time period. And if that were so, why would Disney voluntarily permit wait times to vary from 30 mins to 110 minutes?

But agreed that they can overestimate. One line we got in for FOP was posted at 110 or 120, and we were through in 90.

That's not true, the interior set up for where you walk through often changes. You often cannot guess how long that line winds around from the outside. They do the time from the sign because that is where they hand out the little tag to estimate the time. They don't hand the little tag out far back.

I am sure they can estimate other ways as well, but that is the way I am familiar with.

 

[Tuvalu]

Exactly this ^^^^^^

 

[Retroman40]

The merge CM is expected to maintain the proper ratio. It's one of the more stressful positions at a popular attraction when it's really busy. Taking gratuitous abuse is part of the job. Groupers have nothing to do with it; when you're grouping you have no idea if people came in via FP+ or SB unless you ask them.

Posted wait times are controlled by DOC. They are based on where guests are at various points in the queue. If the queue is "loose" the wait time will be shorter than posted. The red "FLIK" cards are only used as a check/back up.

There is tremendous pressure to keep FP+ waits to under 15 minutes (Translation - if the FP+ line is really backed up you're asking for a LONG wait in SB). The "normal" ratio is 4:1 but the whole system goes bonkers when one or more FP+ attractions go down and re-ads flood the place. If FP+ gets too backed up it goes to 10:1 or even "Clear FP+". Some attractions (like the ToT will simply close the SB line after a down time).

 

[ninjaprincesst]

You also have to take in to account when the wait time is posted the number of people in line was an estimated 60 minute wait, but then you have tons of the "excuse me I need to get to my party" line cutters. For example there was just Dad in line than 30 or 40 minutes in here comes Mom and 5 or 6 kids, and same thing 1 or 2 members of a tour group suddenly becomes 20 members of a tour group, all this cutting expand the line

 

[larryz]

You also have to take in to account when the wait time is posted the number of people in line was an estimated 60 minute wait, but then you have tons of the "excuse me I need to get to my party" line cutters. For example there was just Dad in line than 30 or 40 minutes in here comes Mom and 5 or 6 kids, and same thing 1 or 2 members of a tour group suddenly becomes 20 members of a tour group, all this cutting expand the line

Ah, but we all know that those last-second additions actually have no effect on the length of your wait. At least, that's what the line-cutters all say...