A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
If people are unhappy with the direction of the new SW movies, then the solution is not to watch them. Why spend your hard earned money on something you don't like.

What makes you think that we've watched them had a chance to see TFA for free and passed it up. Mainly because being stuck watching a 90 minute toy advertisement did not appeal to me saw the trailer with BB-8 and immediately wrote the movie off
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
The biggest problem with TWDC WRT the parks is the parks are seen only as a merchandising venue and advertising for the latest 'hot' IP.

Plus everything needs to be keyed to not upset a fearful 4 year old.

As the meme takes hold that WDW is for Toddlers only, fewer people without toddlers will visit creating a self reinforcing feedback loop
 

NearTheEars

Well-Known Member
What makes you think that we've watched them had a chance to see TFA for free and passed it up. Mainly because being stuck watching a 90 minute toy advertisement did not appeal to me saw the trailer with BB-8 and immediately wrote the movie off

At least you're consistent. You write off / complain about nearly everything without actually experiencing them haha.
 

nevol

Well-Known Member
The biggest problem with TWDC WRT the parks is the parks are seen only as a merchandising venue and advertising for the latest 'hot' IP.

Plus everything needs to be keyed to not upset a fearful 4 year old.

As the meme takes hold that WDW is for Toddlers only, fewer people without toddlers will visit creating a self reinforcing feedback loop

Yup. This is just ignorance. Not among the public, who understandably possess these misconceptions, but among disney parks' leadership as well. While all forms of fiction have progressed, Disney Parks has regressed by treating the parks not as content to be created but as stores, places that generate commodification.

Walt said that we never aim for children. That that would be the end of them. The point of aspirational design is that it appeals to everybody's desires, as humans. And disneyland's rides are all about survival. Near death experiences, essentially. Go to outer space and survive. Raid a tomb, set off a curse, get out alive. go into a haunted mansion, etc. It is survival plus aspirational design that most accurately describes these experiences. Not scaring kids is the antithesis of Disney, yet this generation of leadership is wondering why nobody is showing up anymore.

Another consequence of this ignorance that became the rule book somehow in this century is that everything needs to be easily understandable to both young audiences and foreign/English as a second language audiences. That is such an early 21st century storytelling strategy response to globalization, and it is BS. Do Pixar and Disney animation studios need to omit mature and complex social commentary, life lessons, themes, subtext, and humor from their films just because a 5 year old in the audience might not understand EVERYTHING? Of course not. Their emotional impact relies on being able to tell POWERFUL stories that appeal to every member of the family. The best Disney rides have incredible dialogue and narration, thanks to X Antencio, who we all know, passed this week. He created the richest, most transcendent scripts in the theme park universe. As we remember and honor him, we must acknowledge the power of his body of work and critically reassess some of the simplification and kiddiefication strategies at play early this century.

Survival, threats cannot be ignored, plots in linear narratives and worldbuilding in experiential narrative attractions must strive to be as rich as possible, as this is where believability and spectacle come from, and parks need to be treated linguistically and thematically as content, not toddler's toys at the bargain bin. Pandora, and dare I say Guardians, provide evidence that the winds are changing course for the better in terms of this language/dialogue/narrative complexity issue within attractions. Disney parks post-Walt were best under Eisner and Wells, when they answered to and were green-lit by the movie studios and Eisner himself, not creatively bankrupt and profit-thirsty operations folks in Parks and Resorts, a change that was implemented to relieve some responsibility after Eisner suffered a heart attack. These two projects are strong likely because they involved collaborations with film studios that have a certain level of autonomy and creative control who haven't been trapped in the halls of WDI during their 20-year-long-emasculation-by-castration ceremony. And I hate to say this, as I cried like a baby when he passed and it really will send me to Disney fandom h***, but Marty's "Mickey's 10 Commandments" include and perpetuate some of these problematic design strategies. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but as great as the commandments sound as reminders to self-manage the design process, I think a few when you get into the details suggest that storytelling clarity or what have you come from this kind of oversimplification that I think ought to be avoided. And on the topic of the Disneyland second gate, he preferred DCA to Westcot, saying that he preferred not to spend another 7 years on a project they'd already accomplished (EPCOT).

Dreaming of an alternative future in late 2019 when Iger's replacement turns out to be a risk-taker and disruptor who gets into the weeds and cleans up house and re-structures these corporate hierarchies, for no reason other than the fact that he built the safest most profitable empire imaginable and there is no further growth that the company can accomplish in that direction, making decisions from that vague flyover perspective. Perhaps underperformance of the parks will push an executive to manage the crisis, dig a little deeper, and address all that is wrong with the bloated P+R machine.
 
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AEfx

Well-Known Member
Dreaming of an alternative future in late 2019 when Iger's replacement turns out to be a risk-taker and disruptor who gets into the weeds and cleans up house and re-structures these corporate hierarchies, for no reason other than the fact that he built the safest most profitable empire imaginable and there is no further growth that the company can accomplish in that direction, making decisions from that vague flyover perspective. Perhaps underperformance of the parks will push an executive to manage the crisis, dig a little deeper, and address all that is wrong with the bloated P+R machine.

That's where you lose me.

A "risk-taker and disruptor" wouldn't get the job to begin with, and they wouldn't stay very long if they somehow managed to.

Bob Iger saved the feature film and animation divisions of the company, and turned it into the biggest movie studio in the world. When you look at what they were releasing previously ("Cinderella III", "Home on the Range") and the live-action direction (with few and far between mainstream hits) it's a remarkable recovery.

Yes, the parks suffered - but I'd argue that with the Wall Street environment, and the high profitability of those parks - it wouldn't have been much different with anyone else that Wall Street would have tolerated.

I do think that his big blunder will be seen as Avatar - that was just a bad decision, made before the company had seen how powerful the Marvel acquisition was becoming, and before they realized Star Wars was even going to be for sale. I do also think they should have started leveraging Star Wars sooner in the parks. But again - I have a hard time thinking that the outside influences of the company would have allowed much else.
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
I can tell you that I'm safe now as the 1,000th resident of the Haunted Mansion. I'll be sure to greet anyone here when you visit. I won't be a creep and follow you home like those other guys though.
I seen a photos of the haunted mansion and some claimed some of the gravestones were damaged by the hurricane D:
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
Agreed. The original books were amazing and I read them all several times when I was a teenager. However trying to turn 10s of thousands of years of dense sci-fi history into a single movie was a stupid idea and then to mix up all that history and change it as much as they did was a crime. The mini series was better but yah, wrong feel. Denis Villeneuve Is apparently taking a shot at putting the series on film and I think he has at least a shot of doing it right for once. We'll see. I'm hopeful. I still think Universal should by the theme park rides and finally give me the chance to consume some spice and ride on the back of a giant worm. Cheeewhooooo!!!
I think the miniseries did good.
 

wdwfan4ver

Well-Known Member
I do think that his big blunder will be seen as Avatar - that was just a bad decision, made before the company had seen how powerful the Marvel acquisition was becoming, and before they realized Star Wars was even going to be for sale. I do also think they should have started leveraging Star Wars sooner in the parks. But again - I have a hard time thinking that the outside influences of the company would have allowed much else.
There is a problem with that statement though. AK in 2011 was desperate for a new attraction. Eisner did under build AK and need more attractions badly to the eyes of a good amount of people.

Bob Loves IPs for themeparks and AK always been limited in what IP can be used in AK. Pandora only fitted due to Everest already having the Yeti and Avatar did have fictional creatures. AK also does have the conservation theme that Avatar also has. Bob is not the type to allow something like Beastly Kingdom into AK. Marvel wasn't going to fit into AK. Star Wars is not an Ideal fit from my view either for AK.

Ewoks is very far fetch for AK because of how they were used in Return of the Jedi.

What IP you would've been put into Animal Kingdom instead of Pandora if you were in Bob Iger's shoes unless you wanted the park to become even more stale before Zootopia came out?

The problem from an IP standpoint in 2011 for AK was Disney already tried Jungle Book. Doing a Bug's land wasn't going to happen in 2011 for AK and that would've been something Eisner could've allowed if wanted to instead of settling for Its tough to be a big attraction. Nemo would've been a great for AK outside of show purposes, but Nemo did fit Epcot also. The problem with Nemo in Epcot was how Disney used Nemo for the living seas.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
There is a problem with that statement though. AK in 2011 was desperate for a new attraction. Eisner did under build AK and need more attractions badly to the eyes of a good amount of people.

Bob Loves IPs for themeparks and AK always been limited in what IP can be used in AK. Pandora only fitted due to Everest already having the Yeti and Avatar did have fictional creatures. AK also does have the conservation theme that Avatar also has. Bob is not the type to allow something like Beastly Kingdom into AK. Marvel wasn't going to fit into AK. Star Wars is not an Ideal fit from my view either for AK.

Ewoks is very far fetch for AK because of how they were used in Return of the Jedi.

What IP you would've been put into Animal Kingdom instead of Pandora if you were in Bob Iger's shoes unless you wanted the park to become even more stale before Zootopia came out?

The problem from an IP standpoint in 2011 for AK was Disney already tried Jungle Book. Doing a Bug's land wasn't going to happen in 2011 for AK and that would've been something Eisner could've allowed if wanted to instead of settling for Its tough to be a big attraction. Nemo would've been a great for AK outside of show purposes, but Nemo did fit Epcot also. The problem with Nemo in Epcot was how Disney used Nemo for the living seas.
You're assuming far, far too much concern about theme and even the performance of the park. Licensing Avatar was all about Harry Potter and having the biggest box office.
 

FigmentJedi

Well-Known Member
There is a problem with that statement though. AK in 2011 was desperate for a new attraction. Eisner did under build AK and need more attractions badly to the eyes of a good amount of people.

Bob Loves IPs for themeparks and AK always been limited in what IP can be used in AK. Pandora only fitted due to Everest already having the Yeti and Avatar did have fictional creatures. AK also does have the conservation theme that Avatar also has. Bob is not the type to allow something like Beastly Kingdom into AK. Marvel wasn't going to fit into AK. Star Wars is not an Ideal fit from my view either for AK.

Ewoks is very far fetch for AK because of how they were used in Return of the Jedi.

What IP you would've been put into Animal Kingdom instead of Pandora if you were in Bob Iger's shoes unless you wanted the park to become even more stale before Zootopia came out?

The problem from an IP standpoint in 2011 for AK was Disney already tried Jungle Book. Doing a Bug's land wasn't going to happen in 2011 for AK and that would've been something Eisner could've allowed if wanted to instead of settling for Its tough to be a big attraction. Nemo would've been a great for AK outside of show purposes, but Nemo did fit Epcot also. The problem with Nemo in Epcot was how Disney used Nemo for the living seas.
I believe the pre-Pandora plan circa 2008 (around the same time they were first kicking around the idea of Rivers of Light in the form of a nighttime parade) was to do a version of Beastly Kingdom with a greater Classic Disney Animation IP emphasis. Make the dragon of Dragon's Keep specifically Maleficent.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Spirited Quickees (because they are the best kind):

I hope our Central and NE Florida members are OK. Have we heard from @The Mom?
I asked about whether Disney was going to have any EPCOT-related announcements around 10/1 and ... crickets. I am starting to think there won't be any, perhaps even to get Wall Street's attention off all the spending that is finally happening in the swamps.

Do you think that Georgie K and Phil Holmes and Danny Cockerell and Co are thrilled that they lost a lot of trees in Irma? Fewer to hack down and remove the benches underneath.

SDL is up and running and successful, so Disney is moving into seasonal celebrations. https://news.shanghaidisneyresort.com.cn
/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=show&catid=8&id=599

Speaking of SDL, our favorite Twink Tweeter in the Desert, @Daykota, is just back and ... I hate to take shots at anyone (as my followers know), but it would appear he went all the way to Shanghai and ... and spent six days in a theme park that honestly is a two-day visit tops, three if you want to hang at DisneyTown etc. I will never understand people who travel to the other side of the world to spend an OCD amount of time in a theme park and skip actually experiencing the amazing place they are at. But he gets the award for the Disney online community for spending the most amount of time in SDL since its opening. What he does in all that time is a huge question.

Talking about the online community, Anaheim is really in for it. At least three (and likely 12) O-Town bloggers are either out there or on the way to 'cover' the start of Halloweentime at DLR. Really!

Spoke with a DCL insider today and there is a lot of concern about not being able to go to popular islands in the Eastern Caribbean for "many, many months" ... I was told DCL is going to likely be very slow about announcing long term plans now that many of these places (St. Martin, St. Thomas, Tortola etc.) that were staples are largely (sadly!) decimated. One exec apparently joked about "maybe two new ships were enough" and it was not warmly received. Tasteless, tacky, but also likely true right now.

Was told to expect "major" entertainment cuts at WDW starting this fall, but most after Christmas holiday period unless numbers drastically improve. Was told there is consideration to dropping many night shows to a rotation instead of a nightly basis. Was also told this isn't etched in stone ... but may be following the fourth quarter earnings report.

How come no one ever comes out and says what most observers can see: MNSSHP is an incredibly tired event?

How is it that rumors of FW permanently closing are being taken serious? Camp sites for tents that are more costly than the average 3.5 star O-Town hotel? Just no.

No, stop bothering me, nothing has changed on the Tiki Room show ending. It will be.

Aren't we supposed to have heard about Club 33 WDW plans by now?

If I'm ESPN, I'm even more concerned that NFL ratings, which were down last year, haven't turned around.



Anyone know how many upcharge Food and Wine events were cancelled due to Irma?

I know I could say this all the time and be right, but price increases are coming ..across the board.

Notice how quiet all is on UNI-Beijing? Notice how it resembles SDL at the same point in its development? You think that is all they have in common (beyond the fact that about 2/3rds of the people who built SDL are working on Beijing)?

Having missed Cars 3, I am anxious to see Coco. It looks very good.

Marvel at DCA is ... is ... something that will be happening sometime in the future and will include a few really kewl attractions that may be open in 5-7 years time.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It's alright, not trying to stir the pot, just also stating my opinion. I was mostly dreading Colin Trevorrow directing, I hope JJ can redeem the post-mortem fan reaction to TFA.

OK. We've both stated our opinions. I just wanted to add that my opinion is also tinged with what I have been told from people closer to the situation than you (or I) will ever be.
 

IanDLBZF

Well-Known Member
How is it that rumors of FW permanently closing are being taken serious? Camp sites for tents that are more than the average 3.5 star O-Town hotel? Just no.
Apparently too many people went too far with the FW rumors, IMHO. They anticipate FW to reopen next week.
Aren't we supposed to have heard about Club 33 WDW plans by now?
In case you forgot, the "Disney Files Magazine" confirmed Club 33 would be coming to WDW.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
There is a problem with that statement though. AK in 2011 was desperate for a new attraction. Eisner did under build AK and need more attractions badly to the eyes of a good amount of people.

Bob Loves IPs for themeparks and AK always been limited in what IP can be used in AK. Pandora only fitted due to Everest already having the Yeti and Avatar did have fictional creatures. AK also does have the conservation theme that Avatar also has. Bob is not the type to allow something like Beastly Kingdom into AK. Marvel wasn't going to fit into AK. Star Wars is not an Ideal fit from my view either for AK.

I have a hard time thinking there weren't better choices. They certainly had some in the Imagineering idea warehouse they could have used.

Like I said, I think he did an amazing job with the core of the company, the film business, but this was just not the best idea at all. Avatar is not a strong IP. It was obviously incredibly successful, but that was a confluence of events that won't happen again - it was the first movie made specifically to take advantage of new 3-D technology and was released in a period where there wasn't much completion. And partially, that is James Cameron's doing - the new Avatar movies that have been delayed now a half-dozen times should have been in the theaters before the land even opened (though I don't know if that would have really helped that much).

I actually wonder how many people go to Pandora and don't even really realize that it is based on a film...LOL.
 

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