Q's for 'Fix the Magic' ppl

I love these boards. Contributors to these forums absolutely represent some of the most knowledgeable Disneyphiles on the planet. They also feature some of the most negative people, on any discussion forum, Disney or otherwise. I keep coming back because of the former, and have learned to ‘consider the source’ when encountering the latter. Some people in the world are hopelessly negative; they always seek out the bad and choose to ignore the positive, or sadly, simply don’t see it. We all know people like that so it’s no surprise that with our large numbers here, several are in our midst.

I’ve read all the posts in the threads ‘Zip a Dee Doo Blah...” and ‘WDW Fan Base Initiative’. I appreciate that the opinions of some of these posters are quite respected on the boards. If these people state that there is an apparent decline in the quality of the parks, it gets my attention. I do visit twice per year, have done so for years, and I’ve personally felt a continued improvement in quality the past few years. But I digress.

The catalyst for the fan based initiative-Fix the Magic-was the Kevin Yee article on the sorry state of Splash Mountain. I have no issue with people being upset about the show quality, but I want to ask a few questions of those who posted to those 2 aforementioned threads (and anyone else who would like to contribute, of course). I’m not trying to be ‘difficult’ in any way, but I really want to know what people think about the following:

1. If ‘Splash’ is in such dire shape, and has been like that for a few days, is it possible that a single significant event is to blame (electrical issue, staff illness, etc)? Four years ago, I stayed at P.O.R. for the first time, and it was a disaster. There were cigarette butts everywhere, spilled drinks not picked up for days, etc. It was a mess for 4 days. Everyone on here assured me that was an anomaly and there must have been some kind of temporary issue. I haven’t seen it like that since. Is it possible that’s what’s up with ‘Splash’?

2. Do those of you who notice the ‘bad’ actually notice all the ‘good’ stuff going on? ‘Splash’ as described, should be shut down for refurb-agreed, but do notice or give props for all the positive work? In the past few months, MK has debuted ‘The Magic, the Memories and You’, new queue at Pooh, new queue and hitchhiking ghosts at HM, refurb of Main St. Buildings, new Adventureland bridge, Town Square Theater, some Treehouse work and continues a $300 million F.L.E. expansion. Fondness of these changes is irrelevant...these examples show money being spent and an effort to continually improve quality and the show.

3. Are you looking at the 80’ and 90’s through ‘rose colored glasses’? I know that there were breakdowns, effects issues, long queues, etc. back then as well. Has there been an actual decline in quality, or like many other things, is it a product of the internet age and our ability to instantly share text, photos and video? This is another ‘Google effect’...magnification of data. Twenty years ago, any of us who went to WDW could share photos and stories with only a few people, but that’s it. Now, if any of MKs 17 million annual visitors see an issue, they can write about it and share it with the world. Maybe this ‘Splash’ issue could have happened in 1995, but people visiting before or after would have no awareness of it. Now, we have people like Kevin Yee searching, snapping and posting photos that we can all see. Were there really never railroad ties missing on BTMRR in the past, or did we simply have no way of knowing that unless we were there at that time...and looking?

4. (For the ‘conspiracy theorists’ only) Do you really believe that the T.D.O. people are sitting in a room somewhere, wringing their hands, saying “No need to fix ‘Splash’, we still get 17 million people a year...muahahahah”? As Steve said in one of the posts, Disney has a system in place to see what needs to be fixed, and generates a plan to do so. I’ve been involved for years in making decisions where I work and I can tell you a few things I’ve learned. Most people are well intentioned, have pride, and care about quality. I know that every decision made involves lots of dialogue, discussion and debate. Even so, there are co-workers, and people in the community, who completely disagree with some of them. Unless you are sitting around the table, you can’t appreciate the rationale and how priorities are set. I tend to see the glass half full. Are things at WDW perfect? Nope. Were they ever? Nope. The T.D.O. people have done several good things during a 2 year worldwide recession. If you make a list, you might be surprised how long it is.

I'll keep this as brief as possible (though you'd have probably done better to post this in one of the already existing threads instead)-

1- I'm not sure what has CAUSED the issues with Splash, but the reason they aren't fixed is mostly due to lax maintenance (despite ample time to repair said damage just recently). Some of the issues were present before the refurb earlier this year where they added lap bars. Under normal circumstances, a lengthy refurb like that should fix most or all issues with the ride. But they clearly left a lot of it unfixed while refurbishing it and it has only gotten worse since then. I've also seen my fair share of trash and dirt all over the WDW property (regardless of park or hotel).

2- Obviously we notice the positive changes. Though we may have issues with them too. But in general, improvements are met with praise on this site. That's one of the points of the fix the magic initiative, to give both constructive criticism AND praise (which is why it stands to be different than other such sites just bashing the management). I myself am both highly critical of the current state of the parks, but also highly praising of the things they do to genuinely improve the experience (the Pooh queue, MM&Y, and new HM ghosts). I've seen just as many (if not more) positive feedback from improvements on this board as negative comments. Praise is given where due by most people.

3- Nostalgia for me is only a factor in the rides long lost (though some of these changes are indeed worse than the ones they replaced). The lax maintenance is a real issue that has degenerated since the 70's, 80's, and early to mid 90's. I wouldn't say it's nostalgia talking when you're noticing MOST animated elements in a ride to be broken or only partially working (or even removed completely). Or when you noticed chipped paint and garbage everywhere constantly. It's not uncommon to have these issues remain for days, weeks, months, and sometimes years without any attention. I've seen broken down rides before at Disney World regardless of when an attraction was built (Maelstrom used to break down all the time). That's pretty much inevitable as far as i can imagine. But it was rare that i'd see a single broken ride effect and have it remain in that condition for very long (sometimes we'd go back the next day and it would work flawlessly). Things were genuinely repaired and touched up more often in the old days. These days, it's quite common to see a multitude of broken effects within the same attraction and have them remain broken for months if not years (if they're ever even fixed at all).

4- Obviously WDW (as with any other company) isn't perfect. There's still no denying the decline in maintenance however. It's a matter of remaining in line with their OWN standards as well as ours. It's something that is actually noticed by real insiders here who KNOW the inner workings of the company. Whatever the process that goes into fixing stuff at WDW, someone definitely decided at some point in fairly recent years that it was less important to fix things more often when found to be broken. The rationalization of this decision should be clear even to normal park goers who don't have any insider info- money. It's as simple as that. They could fix these issues if they wanted, and have done so in the past. They chose to downscale such attempts though, and the obvious reason is that they wish to spend less money and make more profit. That's not a conspiracy theory, it's well known that maintenance was cut back at some point in the past.

Some good points and I can see both sides of the argument. One thing I'll say (and I've been visiting Disney for over 30 years) is that after reading some posts on here over the previous years, I've made some visits in trepidation expecting to see the park falling apart at the seams. This has never happened and even the most criticised attractions have always not been as bad as some posters have made us believe. Nothing is beyond criticism and I do believe that a lot is good intentioned constructive criticism. I also believe there are a minority on here who seem to just enjoy bashing Disney and trying to make out that every trip is somehow a miserable experience, strange that some of these people only seem to discuss the negatives. It's at times like having a family member who only ever discusses things that annoy them, they're not happy unless they have something to complain about

I have highlighted words as I'm not having a go at those who point out the good and the bad about the parks or those who offer realistic criticism with the hope to improve things, rather those who are constantly negative and unrealistic in their expectations. Sometimes too much moaning makes it a drag to read threads when we come on here to enjoy ourselves as well as have serious debates.

I'll take a crack at 3-4.

3. There is no question that the expansion of WDW was at a huge peak between the 80's-90's. Between 1982-1998 3 theme parks, 2 water parks, Pleasure Island and more than a dozen resorts were added. IMHO that has skewed perspectives a bit. We will never see expansion on that scale in WDW ever again. Also the human mind tends to remember the positive and forget the negative. Add both of those together and there is no question that the glasses lean toward rose colored.

4. While I don't think there is some major conspiracy not to spend money at WDW I do think there is a house flipping mentality going on. When you buy a house with the sole intent of selling it you do not spend a single dollar that you do not have to. You buy the $10 a gallon paint vs. the $25 a gallon because it all looks the same for the first year. I think TDO has a similar mindset, but it is not because they are some evil, quality hating, Walt defying goblins. It is simply because it is the way the world works now. No one judges business long term anymore, it is all about the quarterly statement. The way you get a good quarterly statement is do not spend a dollar without a ROI. History has shown us the WDW's average guest keeps showing up in spite of lack of investment in the parks.

Thanks for the post, I hope this response doesn't come off like an advertisement for our new site but here we go:

Kevin Yee's article was kind of the deciding factor and imputus to start this site. We are all disney lovers and would want nothing better than to report good results and improvements around the World. But, when you see a major E-attraction in such disrepair it is disheartening. Especially since it had a refurb in the recent past.

Our forums will focus on these issues. When the issue occured and a timeline on how long it took to be fixed. We will also have a blog section so we can extrapilate on current trends, both good and bad.

If indeed this maintenance issue was caused by something "electrical" or some other nondescript factor, we will report it and have a timeline as to how long this issue went before it was addressed. Obviously I don't currently have any insight as to the exact problem that would cause multiple AA to stop functioning but I think we all agree it is a major problem and should be fixed.

Good refubs will also be addressed, like I said the forums will be more newsy than comment oriented. We will reserve opinion on good and bad show to our blog.

I do think TDO as a management team reviews their annual attendance and makes judgements based on them. If they saw deep declines, I believe they would make stronger efforts to improve their show quality. As of now, they are still number one and the casual fan will probably not notice most of the issues us disneyphiles do. But we are watching and if Anaheim, Tokyo and Paris are able to keep improving, why can't the flagship resort of the world keep up?

I am at work, so it is hard to post a long winded response. But I will say, it is a well known and accepted fact, that WDW has seriously cut back on maintenance. They employ less people and budget less money for it. This is not up for debate. These cutbacks inevitably lead to worsening show quality.

If you look back at my posting history on this website, you will see that I regularly give praise when due. One of the examples you gave of Magic Memories and You simply blew me away! And I cannot wait to see this tech applied to future experiences.

To some of your points however, I will say that the creation of new experiences and attractions should never come at the expense of existing attractions, and creating these new experiences shouldn't be used an excuse on why some attractions are "falling apart". The two (maintenance and expansions) come from different department budgets as well.

And while I don't think that TDO has it out for WDW or anything like that. I do believe that they belive they can let small operational issues like broken AAs go unfixed for long periods of time because it will have virtually no impact on guest satisfaction and attendence, and it's definitely a shame that WDW is so insulated from this causing a significant impact.

dreamscometrue said:

I love these boards. Contributors to these forums absolutely represent some of the most knowledgeable Disneyphiles on the planet. They also feature some of the most negative people, on any discussion forum, Disney or otherwise. I keep coming back because of the former, and have learned to ‘consider the source’ when encountering the latter. Some people in the world are hopelessly negative; they always seek out the bad and choose to ignore the positive, or sadly, simply don’t see it. We all know people like that so it’s no surprise that with our large numbers here, several are in our midst.
is.

Click to expand...

Hi... I am a local to WDW....the best way to contrast the current reality is to visit WDW and DLR in dates close to one another... we did it last October and literally rode the Magical Express FROM WDW to board the airplane to DLR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=614A6DUgMeQ&feature=channel_video_title

So for us the glaring differences between how WDW and DLR seem to operate came as quite a shock!!!! Yeah we read the posts on here and other places... but as they say SEEING IS BELIEVING. I am not saying All of DLR was "better" than WDW....what I am saying is though that DLR at the moment seems to belong to a different mindset..... we were there for the Halloween period.... while WDW does have some decorations up at the MK near the entrance and some minor other locations, DL seems to have decorations everywhere....entertainment everywhere....and do not even get me started on Remember Dreams Come True fireworks when sitting next to Wishes....RDCT is Incredible! DLR's Downtown Disney seemed vividly alive after dark, a contrast from Ours on most days that I have seen.... It was weird too at Disneyland park itself....so much smaller than the MK...but so many more attractions than the MK...and yet it seemed "BIG" (yeah I know its an illusion in my mind!).... I like the mindset that Adding a New Attraction does not automaticly equate out in California (as it seems to at WDW) to removing one... also DLR seems to love the history of Disney more and gives it a Big Hug out there BUT perhaps though WDW is beginning to "understand" so I am hopeful (call me naive perhaps?l). As for upkeep...didnt see anything glaringly wrong or broken at DLR, except for the Club 33 elevator that I shorted out and broke (the guide told me to push the button, I heard a "pop" and the whole thing just Died lol). My wife caught it on video (thanks honey ((( ) and made me put in in the video (the one in my channel that ONLY says Disneyland Park contains this "Magical Moment" that I for a long time feared would result in them sending me a bill in the mail haha)

Now there is ONE area that WDW has a much better quality of and that is our Cast Members!!!!! Perhaps it is the large mix of Local employees, mixed with the College & International program members that does this....because the "average" CM we encountered at DLR was far less enthusiastic that our WDW CMs.... of course there were exceptions...the DLR Tiki Room hosts were awesome (of course with the last few years of us being stuck with UNM show at WDW I suppose if I was a CM in there I wouldnt be super enthusiastic either hehehe)....and we did meet quite a number of other exceptional CMs there.... BUT the overall experience we had still favored WDW in this area a lot from our encounters.

Would I ever trade WDW for the DLR? Not even the slightest chance.... I love WDW....but I do have a crazy theory that TDA at some point in the 90s (from what I have read on tbe boards etc Disneyland was sorta in our spot that we are today back then) realized that if they cater to "the Locals" who are a pain in the butt by raising "the bar", that in the long run all Guests (1st timers all the way to every weekender's lol) will have an experience that promotes not only repeat visits, but also word of mouth advertising that you cannot put a value on....which if you follow this long train (choo choo!) of thought has resulted in DLR to thrive even during this craptacular economy...

dreamscometrue said:

I love these boards. Contributors to these forums absolutely represent some of the most knowledgeable Disneyphiles on the planet. They also feature some of the most negative people, on any discussion forum, Disney or otherwise. I keep coming back because of the former, and have learned to ‘consider the source’ when encountering the latter. Some people in the world are hopelessly negative; they always seek out the bad and choose to ignore the positive, or sadly, simply don’t see it. We all know people like that so it’s no surprise that with our large numbers here, several are in our midst.

I’ve read all the posts in the threads ‘Zip a Dee Doo Blah...” and ‘WDW Fan Base Initiative’. I appreciate that the opinions of some of these posters are quite respected on the boards. If these people state that there is an apparent decline in the quality of the parks, it gets my attention. I do visit twice per year, have done so for years, and I’ve personally felt a continued improvement in quality the past few years. But I digress.

The catalyst for the fan based initiative-Fix the Magic-was the Kevin Yee article on the sorry state of Splash Mountain. I have no issue with people being upset about the show quality, but I want to ask a few questions of those who posted to those 2 aforementioned threads (and anyone else who would like to contribute, of course). I’m not trying to be ‘difficult’ in any way, but I really want to know what people think about the following:

1. If ‘Splash’ is in such dire shape, and has been like that for a few days, is it possible that a single significant event is to blame (electrical issue, staff illness, etc)? Four years ago, I stayed at P.O.R. for the first time, and it was a disaster. There were cigarette butts everywhere, spilled drinks not picked up for days, etc. It was a mess for 4 days. Everyone on here assured me that was an anomaly and there must have been some kind of temporary issue. I haven’t seen it like that since. Is it possible that’s what’s up with ‘Splash’?

2. Do those of you who notice the ‘bad’ actually notice all the ‘good’ stuff going on? ‘Splash’ as described, should be shut down for refurb-agreed, but do notice or give props for all the positive work? In the past few months, MK has debuted ‘The Magic, the Memories and You’, new queue at Pooh, new queue and hitchhiking ghosts at HM, refurb of Main St. Buildings, new Adventureland bridge, Town Square Theater, some Treehouse work and continues a $300 million F.L.E. expansion. Fondness of these changes is irrelevant...these examples show money being spent and an effort to continually improve quality and the show.

3. Are you looking at the 80’ and 90’s through ‘rose colored glasses’? I know that there were breakdowns, effects issues, long queues, etc. back then as well. Has there been an actual decline in quality, or like many other things, is it a product of the internet age and our ability to instantly share text, photos and video? This is another ‘Google effect’...magnification of data. Twenty years ago, any of us who went to WDW could share photos and stories with only a few people, but that’s it. Now, if any of MKs 17 million annual visitors see an issue, they can write about it and share it with the world. Maybe this ‘Splash’ issue could have happened in 1995, but people visiting before or after would have no awareness of it. Now, we have people like Kevin Yee searching, snapping and posting photos that we can all see. Were there really never railroad ties missing on BTMRR in the past, or did we simply have no way of knowing that unless we were there at that time...and looking?

4. (For the ‘conspiracy theorists’ only) Do you really believe that the T.D.O. people are sitting in a room somewhere, wringing their hands, saying “No need to fix ‘Splash’, we still get 17 million people a year...muahahahah”? As Steve said in one of the posts, Disney has a system in place to see what needs to be fixed, and generates a plan to do so. I’ve been involved for years in making decisions where I work and I can tell you a few things I’ve learned. Most people are well intentioned, have pride, and care about quality. I know that every decision made involves lots of dialogue, discussion and debate. Even so, there are co-workers, and people in the community, who completely disagree with some of them. Unless you are sitting around the table, you can’t appreciate the rationale and how priorities are set. I tend to see the glass half full. Are things at WDW perfect? Nope. Were they ever? Nope. The T.D.O. people have done several good things during a 2 year worldwide recession. If you make a list, you might be surprised how long it is.

Click to expand...

Hi, I wish you'd posted this in the original thread, because it definitely adds to the discussion. :wave: I never intended for the thread to be nothing but a blast of negativity. Here are my answers; and if you don't mind, I'm going to quote this entire post in the main thread.

1) Of course I realized that by discussing Splash Mt's current state, the Negative Nellies would enthusiastically berate everything they could. Yet that didn't stop me from starting the thread, and here's why: Splash Mountain really is that bad. The animatronics barely move, the audio is off, show scene lighting is atrocious (some AAs are in the dark but the walls are spotlighted); Splash doesn't look like a Disney-owned attraction.

2) If you read my opening post and the more well-written ones carefully, people are indeed praising the recent maintenance in the parks, and many of us are asking why Disney seems to be maintaining facades and other attractions while ignoring certain rides. Splash, BTMRR, COP, and the GMR stand out as having particularly horrible maintenance. Main Street is lovely, but why does that matter if two of the park's wienies are merely creaking along?

Ironically, the thread doesn't have many posts that are 100% doom-and-gloom, but it has plenty of "Magic Pixie Dust" defenders accusing us of not appreciating Disney, not actually liking Disney, not understanding a child's point of view, etc. IMO, it is these rabid defenders who are out of touch with reality. Their posts are naive at best, Disney PR hacks at worst; and their criticisms are illogical. Why would anyone care about the state of Splash Mt. if they didn't like Disney? Why would Kevin Yee, or I, or other respected members like Martin carefully list legitimate problems if we simply hated Disney? Couldn't we just pull out the peeled paint/burnt lightbulb argument instead?

3) WDW was not as technically advanced in the 80s and 90s, but it was far better maintained. Most of the management had been in Florida since its early days, and they had personally invested time into the parks. Of course they wanted to make money, yet they sincerely wanted to provide an unparalleled experience by constantly exceeding Guest's expectation. Just a few examples include topiaries throughout the property's roadways; character waterskiers on the Seven Seas Lagoon; special parades for Easter, July 4th, and Christmas; new parades every four to five years; cannons firing atop the outside of POTC; geysers blasting beside BTMRR; a burning cabin on TSI; Barker Birds outside POTC and the Tiki Room; more live entertainment in the parks; and REAL celebrities and music acts at Grad Nights and on televised specials.

Did you notice something? Not one of those required an upcharge, a special party ticket, or an overpriced makeover to enjoy. They were small things available to every guest for no reason other than Disney could. The late 90s/early 2000s change in management threw out anything that wasn't instantly profitable, thus destroying the small things that added up to a bigger experience.

WDW is the only American resort with this problem. DL still has plenty of small things that enhance the environment, and all of their attractions except Indiana Jones are kept in top shape.

The company itself once considered WDW a peerless standard for all vacations worldwide, as opposed to a magical land exclusively for children, and was willing to offer the best of everything because Disney could. Eisner fought for the best architects and best ideas for expansion. Everything in America was profitable; he should not have allowed the DLP fiasco spook him into pulling back the reins in America.

4) I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I agree with previous posters (Merlin for one) who said the biggest problem is that current execs see the parks as a stepping stone to something else. Profitability and spreadsheets are held up as divinity, and execs worship at the temples to guarantee advancement. I'll be the first one to say I've met some of TDO, and most of them are genuinely friendly people—many of them actually do frequent the parks! The problem is that for years, the people who ultimately control the money have been stereotypical pencil pushers who can't understand anything other than the bottom line. Intangible experiences, a touchstone of the entertainment industry, are a foreign concept to them. As long as a character is slapped on something, they consider it "magical" and "Disney" enough to greenlight—as long as its ROI is astronomical. I'm not saying they're evil people; they just don't belong in the entertainment industry.

Things were never perfect at WDW; and as an overall resort, it offers more than ever before. It did go through a ten-year rough patch, but things are slowly being fixed. (Really slowly; how long does it actually take to paint a building? ) But no amount of repainted facades, Next-Gen queues, interactive Mickey shows, or castle projection shows are an excuse for attractions which are literally falling apart in ways any first-time visitor would notice.

dreamscometrue said:

I love these boards. Contributors to these forums absolutely represent some of the most knowledgeable Disneyphiles on the planet. They also feature some of the most negative people, on any discussion forum, Disney or otherwise. I keep coming back because of the former, and have learned to ‘consider the source’ when encountering the latter. Some people in the world are hopelessly negative; they always seek out the bad and choose to ignore the positive, or sadly, simply don’t see it. We all know people like that so it’s no surprise that with our large numbers here, several are in our midst.

I’ve read all the posts in the threads ‘Zip a Dee Doo Blah...” and ‘WDW Fan Base Initiative’. I appreciate that the opinions of some of these posters are quite respected on the boards. If these people state that there is an apparent decline in the quality of the parks, it gets my attention. I do visit twice per year, have done so for years, and I’ve personally felt a continued improvement in quality the past few years. But I digress.

The catalyst for the fan based initiative-Fix the Magic-was the Kevin Yee article on the sorry state of Splash Mountain. I have no issue with people being upset about the show quality, but I want to ask a few questions of those who posted to those 2 aforementioned threads (and anyone else who would like to contribute, of course). I’m not trying to be ‘difficult’ in any way, but I really want to know what people think about the following:

1. If ‘Splash’ is in such dire shape, and has been like that for a few days, is it possible that a single significant event is to blame (electrical issue, staff illness, etc)? Four years ago, I stayed at P.O.R. for the first time, and it was a disaster. There were cigarette butts everywhere, spilled drinks not picked up for days, etc. It was a mess for 4 days. Everyone on here assured me that was an anomaly and there must have been some kind of temporary issue. I haven’t seen it like that since. Is it possible that’s what’s up with ‘Splash’?

2. Do those of you who notice the ‘bad’ actually notice all the ‘good’ stuff going on? ‘Splash’ as described, should be shut down for refurb-agreed, but do notice or give props for all the positive work? In the past few months, MK has debuted ‘The Magic, the Memories and You’, new queue at Pooh, new queue and hitchhiking ghosts at HM, refurb of Main St. Buildings, new Adventureland bridge, Town Square Theater, some Treehouse work and continues a $300 million F.L.E. expansion. Fondness of these changes is irrelevant...these examples show money being spent and an effort to continually improve quality and the show.

3. Are you looking at the 80’ and 90’s through ‘rose colored glasses’? I know that there were breakdowns, effects issues, long queues, etc. back then as well. Has there been an actual decline in quality, or like many other things, is it a product of the internet age and our ability to instantly share text, photos and video? This is another ‘Google effect’...magnification of data. Twenty years ago, any of us who went to WDW could share photos and stories with only a few people, but that’s it. Now, if any of MKs 17 million annual visitors see an issue, they can write about it and share it with the world. Maybe this ‘Splash’ issue could have happened in 1995, but people visiting before or after would have no awareness of it. Now, we have people like Kevin Yee searching, snapping and posting photos that we can all see. Were there really never railroad ties missing on BTMRR in the past, or did we simply have no way of knowing that unless we were there at that time...and looking?

4. (For the ‘conspiracy theorists’ only) Do you really believe that the T.D.O. people are sitting in a room somewhere, wringing their hands, saying “No need to fix ‘Splash’, we still get 17 million people a year...muahahahah”? As Steve said in one of the posts, Disney has a system in place to see what needs to be fixed, and generates a plan to do so. I’ve been involved for years in making decisions where I work and I can tell you a few things I’ve learned. Most people are well intentioned, have pride, and care about quality. I know that every decision made involves lots of dialogue, discussion and debate. Even so, there are co-workers, and people in the community, who completely disagree with some of them. Unless you are sitting around the table, you can’t appreciate the rationale and how priorities are set. I tend to see the glass half full. Are things at WDW perfect? Nope. Were they ever? Nope. The T.D.O. people have done several good things during a 2 year worldwide recession. If you make a list, you might be surprised how long it is.

Click to expand...

Puntagordabob said it best, I think.

The great thing about this whole situation is that you can actually compare Disney to ITSELF. You can compare "WDW Park Upkeep" to "DL Park Upkeep". And when you compare the two against each other, it's not even close.

And DL is able to do it while spending vastly more on expansion currently at their parks than WDW... So it's not a "we've got to spend the money on other things" situation.

I'll take a quick stab at your questions:

1. Splash is a HUGE attraction with a HUGE number of animatronics. It would make good sense that a lot could go wrong there if it's not properly maintained.

2. I would hope people see the "good" going on... Becasue there is some. It's tough to point at the FLE I think though... Because that was ordered from Anaheim after TDO wouldn't pull the trigger (meaning I don't give TDO credit for the project in any form). But the HM que (and the attraction itself) is great. It seems so odd to me that HM is in such great shape and so many other attractions suffer. Could it be because HM is still just running well because of the complete overhaul it got a couple years ago? I don't know. Maybe.

3. You pose an interesting question. You wonder if it's possible that because of today's technology and everyone being "wired", we hear about more that's wrong, and faster. That may be. But I would point to DL once again. They don't have this maintenance problem, and "wired" locals are at that park far more often than locals are at WDW. Also, it's evident WDW is attempting to change their parks to help them deal with this "wired" world... See the interactive ques and surveys regarding mobile device interation, etc... If they're looking to adapt to this wired world in these ways, it would stand to reason that they should see the need to step up maintenance to combat that exact reasoning.

4. I fully believe that TDO believes WDW is the "goose that laid the golden egg". I believe they have some sort of formula they use to determine what has to be done to maintain crowd levels and PROFITS. I believe that every decision TDO makes revolves around money. I think TDA is the opposite. I believe they work under the "If you build it, they will come" mentality. Put the best product forward, and the rest will happen.

I love WDW, and it's true that there's still some really good things happening there. But there's a far superior product out in California. Until the differences in the two products have closed a bit, that's who's getting my money.

puntagordabob said:

Hi... I am a local to WDW....the best way to contrast the current reality is to visit WDW and DLR in dates close to one another... we did it last October and literally rode the Magical Express FROM WDW to board the airplane to DLR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=614A6DUgMeQ&feature=channel_video_title

So for us the glaring differences between how WDW and DLR seem to operate came as quite a shock!!!! Yeah we read the posts on here and other places... but as they say SEEING IS BELIEVING. I am not saying All of DLR was "better" than WDW....what I am saying is though that DLR at the moment seems to belong to a different mindset..... we were there for the Halloween period.... while WDW does have some decorations up at the MK near the entrance and some minor other locations, DL seems to have decorations everywhere....entertainment everywhere....and do not even get me started on Remember Dreams Come True fireworks when sitting next to Wishes....RDCT is Incredible! DLR's Downtown Disney seemed vividly alive after dark, a contrast from Ours on most days that I have seen.... It was weird too at Disneyland park itself....so much smaller than the MK...but so many more attractions than the MK...and yet it seemed "BIG" (yeah I know its an illusion in my mind!).... I like the mindset that Adding a New Attraction does not automaticly equate out in California (as it seems to at WDW) to removing one... also DLR seems to love the history of Disney more and gives it a Big Hug out there BUT perhaps though WDW is beginning to "understand" so I am hopeful (call me naive perhaps?l). As for upkeep...didnt see anything glaringly wrong or broken at DLR, except for the Club 33 elevator that I shorted out and broke (the guide told me to push the button, I heard a "pop" and the whole thing just Died lol). My wife caught it on video (thanks honey ((( ) and made me put in in the video (the one in my channel that ONLY says Disneyland Park contains this "Magical Moment" that I for a long time feared would result in them sending me a bill in the mail haha)

Now there is ONE area that WDW has a much better quality of and that is our Cast Members!!!!! Perhaps it is the large mix of Local employees, mixed with the College & International program members that does this....because the "average" CM we encountered at DLR was far less enthusiastic that our WDW CMs.... of course there were exceptions...the DLR Tiki Room hosts were awesome (of course with the last few years of us being stuck with UNM show at WDW I suppose if I was a CM in there I wouldnt be super enthusiastic either hehehe)....and we did meet quite a number of other exceptional CMs there.... BUT the overall experience we had still favored WDW in this area a lot from our encounters.

Click to expand...

The big differerence between WDW and DLR maintenance is the way the departments are structured.

At DLR, they have a Animation dept, they are the only people allowed to work on AA figures. The Electrical dept is the only people who work on the electrical parts of rides and attractions. Computer technicians work only on computers and electronics. Mechanics work only on the mechanical portions of the rides.

At WDW, they have mechanics and electrical and computer techs but they work on whatever management wants them to work on. If there is a show problem, they may send a mechanic or apprentice to fix something that they have no experience on working on.

Buried20KLeague said:

Puntagordabob said it best, I think.

The great thing about this whole situation is that you can actually compare Disney to ITSELF. You can compare "WDW Park Upkeep" to "DL Park Upkeep". And when you compare the two against each other, it's not even close.

And DL is able to do it while spending vastly more on expansion currently at their parks than WDW... So it's not a "we've got to spend the money on other things" situation.

I'll take a quick stab at your questions:

1. Splash is a HUGE attraction with a HUGE number of animatronics. It would make good sense that a lot could go wrong there if it's not properly maintained.

2. I would hope people see the "good" going on... Becasue there is some. It's tough to point at the FLE I think though... Because that was ordered from Anaheim after TDO wouldn't pull the trigger (meaning I don't give TDO credit for the project in any form). But the HM que (and the attraction itself) is great. It seems so odd to me that HM is in such great shape and so many other attractions suffer. Could it be because HM is still just running well because of the complete overhaul it got a couple years ago? I don't know. Maybe.

3. You pose an interesting question. You wonder if it's possible that because of today's technology and everyone being "wired", we hear about more that's wrong, and faster. That may be. But I would point to DL once again. They don't have this maintenance problem, and "wired" locals are at that park far more often than locals are at WDW. Also, it's evident WDW is attempting to change their parks to help them deal with this "wired" world... See the interactive ques and surveys regarding mobile device interation, etc... If they're looking to adapt to this wired world in these ways, it would stand to reason that they should see the need to step up maintenance to combat that exact reasoning.

4. I fully believe that TDO believes WDW is the "good that laid the golden egg". I believe they have some sort of formula they use to determine what has to be done to maintain crowd levels and PROFITS. I believe that every decision TDO makes revolves around money. I think TDA is the opposite. I believe they work under the "If you build it, they will come" mentality. Put the best product forward, and the rest will happen.

I love WDW, and it's true that there's still some really good things happening there. But there's a far superior product out in California. Until the differences in that product have closed a bit, that's who's getting my money.

Click to expand...

This got me thinking....For the longest time we have been talking about the competition in Orlando coming up with something great that would kick WDW in the backside and make them realize that they can not milk past success forever. I can not believe that I did not think of it before, but the most likely candidate to do this is Disneyland. I seriously doubt it would sit well with TDO if they lost their long held attendance crown. Granted greater attendance does not translate into greater profit, but loosing that title just might make TDO reevaluate their priorities.

Master Yoda said:

This got me thinking....For the longest time we have been talking about the competition in Orlando coming up with something great that would kick WDW in the backside and make them realize that they can not milk past success forever. I can not believe that I did not think of it before, but the most likely candidate to do this is Disneyland. I seriously doubt it would sit well with TDO if they lost their long held attendance crown. Granted greater attendance does not translate into greater profit, but loosing that title just might make TDO reevaluate their priorities.

Click to expand...

That's a good point. I hadn't really thought about that.

It could be interesting if the "One Parks" initiative actually ends, and DL starts pushing major nationwide commercials on Carsland, World of Color, and Mermaid next Spring. I could see a nationwide commercial push easily take the attendance crown for DL.

But I also wonder if TDA thinks they NEED it. If you read what Lutz wrote in his last column, DL reaches an attenance point that's manageable and it quickly goes downhill fast (something I witnessed personally less than two weeks ago). Could it be that DL is happy with attenance levels? Carsland will increase capacity quite a bit, but I'd go out on a limb to say that extra capacity will easily be reached by the locals checking out the new land.

Master Yoda said:

This got me thinking....For the longest time we have been talking about the competition in Orlando coming up with something great that would kick WDW in the backside and make them realize that they can not milk past success forever. I can not believe that I did not think of it before, but the most likely candidate to do this is Disneyland. I seriously doubt it would sit well with TDO if they lost their long held attendance crown. Granted greater attendance does not translate into greater profit, but loosing that title just might make TDO reevaluate their priorities.

Click to expand...

If you think back 10 years, that might have been something that lead TDA to re-evaluate their decision making process and park operations procedures when they lost their crown to WDW back in the 90s. A couple people have been saying it for years on here and I experienced it for myself a year and half ago, Disneyland is providing a superior product over WDW and they are taking huge steps to continue to provide a superior product. While I my still visit WDW on occasion and we love our parks here dearly...our big dollar/big budget Disney Vacation dollars will be heading to Disneyland for the forseeable future!

devoy1701 said:

If you think back 10 years, that might have been something that lead TDA to re-evaluate their decision making process and park operations procedures when they lost their crown to WDW back in the 90s. A couple people have been saying it for years on here and I experienced it for myself a year and half ago, Disneyland is providing a superior product over WDW and they are taking huge steps to continue to provide a superior product. While I my still visit WDW on occasion and we love our parks here dearly...our big dollar/big budget Disney Vacation dollars will be heading to Disneyland for the forseeable future!

Click to expand...

Funny, I was in California in March and didn't notice any huge differences between the two coasts, except that everything but Indiana Jones was functioning very well. Every pirate moved realistically; every rocket glided through space; every special effect on the simplest dark ride (Toad) crackled or sparkled. You know, it wasn't a big difference at all.

Buried20KLeague said:

That's a good point. I hadn't really thought about that.

It could be interesting if the "One Parks" initiative actually ends, and DL starts pushing major nationwide commercials on Carsland, World of Color, and Mermaid next Spring. I could see a nationwide commercial push easily take the attendance crown for DL.

But I also wonder if TDA thinks they NEED it. If you read what Lutz wrote in his last column, DL reaches an attenance point that's manageable and it quickly goes downhill fast (something I witnessed personally less than two weeks ago). Could it be that DL is happy with attenance levels? Carsland will increase capacity quite a bit, but I'd go out on a limb to say that extra capacity will easily be reached by the locals checking out the new land.

Click to expand...

Not sure if I'm entirely following your thought in your last paragraph...but the reason attendence went downhil as per Al's latest article is because the weekend blackout dates have started to go into effect for the lower tier annual passes, they have blackout structures different than WDW.

I think Carsland will help to bridge the gap between DCA and DL attendence figures and increasing overall attendance at both parks and the entire resort in general.

Buried20KLeague said:

The great thing about this whole situation is that you can actually compare Disney to ITSELF. You can compare "WDW Park Upkeep" to "DL Park Upkeep". And when you compare the two against each other, it's not even close.

And DL is able to do it while spending vastly more on expansion currently at their parks than WDW... So it's not a "we've got to spend the money on other things" situation.

Click to expand...

Expansion projects have nothing to do with maintenance costs. Capital expenditures are investments, not expenses. Such large scale budgeting and expenditures are determined in Burbank, not Orlando or Anaheim.

wizards8507 said:

Expansion projects have nothing to do with maintenance costs. Capital expenditures are investments, not expenses. Such large scale budgeting and expenditures are determined in Burbank, not Orlando or Anaheim.

Click to expand...

While I would agree we had quite a few reputable sources indicating that the FL expansion and even to a point ST2.0 had to be shoved down TDO's throat. In short, they did not to outlay the money for them as it ultimately does come off of the P&L statements.

wizards8507 said:

Expansion projects have nothing to do with maintenance costs. Capital expenditures are investments, not expenses. Such large scale budgeting and expenditures are determined in Burbank, not Orlando or Anaheim.

Click to expand...

I believe that was his point.

xdan0920 said:

I believe that was his point.

Click to expand...

He seemed to be indicated that TDA and TDO were budgeting their money differently (with TDO doing so in an inferior manner). All I was saying is that respective local management teams at each location do not have the control over their budgets that others might think.