Beauty in the Breakdown-- Fastpass

inluvwithbeast

New Member
Original Poster
Okay, so the breakdown of fastpass may not be all that beautiful, but it's a topic that's widely discussed in detail by people on all Disney boards. Is Fastpass faster? Or has it created a bigger mess? Can it be implemented on all popular rides? What about omnimovers? All of the questions have spurred debate. I know smart people who love Fastpass and smart people who despise it. Here's where we hash it out.

First off, for me, is the question over whethe FP actually increases line length. I've always thought that it did not. Those people in the FP line have "been in line" with their FP reservation. Though they may not have physically been in line until their window, they have always been apart of the line. Therefore the wait of the line would be the same, regardless of FP.

It was drawn to my attention, however, that those people with FP are now able to occupy two attraction lines, one physically and one with FP. This is what supposedly makes the lines longer. People who normally couldn't stand in line in front of you because of waiting for another attraction are now capable of doing so.

I can agree, but seems kida gray to me. When I get FP, I go to attractions with small wait times, shops, or grab a snack or beverage while I wait. Occasionally I'll go on an E-ticket of the line seems to be moving quickly. Because of this, I still don't really see how a ride like PPF could suffer from FP. That's not a ride I would choose to wait in line for while I'm waiting for my window to open for SM.



Discuss away and feel free to go off on tangents. ;)
 

disneyrcks

Well-Known Member
I think this is an agree to disagree topic. Fastpass has worked for us but we do the parks our own way. Over the past 6 trips we have not been on TSM because by the time we get to the parks (we are not early birds) the FP's are gone and the line is 90 minutes, we choose not to wait. Does the FP cause that 90 minute wait? Possibly, but I don't know for sure. We can live with that. However I do think there are valid points to both arguments of for vs. against. It is something that will never be agreed upon and most likely will remain. :)
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
I've made no secret on these boards about my thoughts on Fastpass. I strongly support it, but I also feel that most people don't understand exactly how it works.

I've devoted multiple episodes of my Podcast to discussing Fastpass, I have an operations background, and I've actually spoken with someone that works at Disney World in operations that heads Fastpass for Disney World and Disneyland.

I'm sure this sounds conceited, but I thought I'd present some credentials before I offer to answer any questions about Fastpass that people may have.
 

WDWmazprty

Well-Known Member
This thread is like

WHOA!
picture.php


Dejavu!
picture.php


:p
 

inluvwithbeast

New Member
Original Poster
There isn't exactly much meat left in this thread, but here you go:

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=342449&highlight=fastpass+broken+idea

I guess I should have done a search first, but I had been encouraged to start a thread because I had question which people were very reluctant to answer. I'll read the thread you gave me, but there's something to be said for actually getting to engage in the conversation. Oh, and thanks btw for the link. :)

I've made no secret on these boards about my thoughts on Fastpass. I strongly support it, but I also feel that most people don't understand exactly how it works.

I've devoted multiple episodes of my Podcast to discussing Fastpass, I have an operations background, and I've actually spoken with someone that works at Disney World in operations that heads Fastpass for Disney World and Disneyland.

I'm sure this sounds conceited, but I thought I'd present some credentials before I offer to answer any questions about Fastpass that people may have.

Nice! I knew how you felt about FP, but I didn't know about your background in Ops. I'm an Industrial Engineering major so this subject really intrigues me. I've actually wondered if you do a simulation of attractions with the FP system and without.
 

dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
It works for Disney or they wouldn't do it. :shrug:

Ayup. Gets people out of some lines, and into stores, restaurants, and other less popular rides. Is it faster? Ehh... If you know how it works, yes, your wait for THAT ride can be less. Does it increase wait times? Once again, ehh.... The ride can only hold so many people during a given day with or without FP. No way around that. What FP does is increase the wait for non FP riders, while significantly decreasing the in line time for FP holders.
 

inluvwithbeast

New Member
Original Poster
Ayup. Gets people out of some lines, and into stores, restaurants, and other less popular rides. Is it faster? Ehh... If you know how it works, yes, your wait for THAT ride can be less. Does it increase wait times? Once again, ehh.... The ride can only hold so many people during a given day with or without FP. No way around that. What FP does is increase the wait for non FP riders, while significantly decreasing the in line time for FP holders.

It seems to me to be a wash speed-wise. If you know how to use the system, then for you as an individual time spent in line physically has decreased significantly. But all in all, FP doesnt shorten (or lengthen for that matter) attraction wait times. It appears to me that it was never designed to shorten lines, and I don't think Disney would have implemented it if they knew it would lengthen lines. It's just made to allow you to add in an extra ride or two as well as lots of shopping and snacking/dining time.
 

thelookingglass

Well-Known Member
I don't think Fastpass should be eliminated, as I think the idea of making "reservations" for rides is a benefit if you know how to use it, and obviously Disney benefits from it by getting people out of lines and into restaurants and stores. But how much we and Disney REALLY benefit from it?

In THEORY, the Fastpass system is functional and would not extend the standby line to longer than it would be if Fastpass didn't exist. IN THEORY. However, there are many factors that go into it so that frequently, this is not the case.

The system itself is designed with the assumption that the "return window" is enforced. The machines still calculate this and even are adjusted by the ride's operating capacity (for example, if Dinosaur was only loading from one side). But we all know at this point that Disney does NOT enforce the return window and you can return any time that day after the starting time on your Fastpass ticket. More and more people in the general public are figuring this out as well and using it to their convenience. So, earlier in the day, Fastpass works great, as nobody is returning late. The regular line flows continuously as if Fastpass was not even there. However, later in the day, after say, a parade, or a large show ending, or dinner time, the Fastpass line for an attraction will get slammed to the point that to accommodate it, the regular line must come to a grinding halt.

And in addition to getting slammed, you've got people with those special, non-attraction specific, "use any time" Fastpasses, and people with special passes from guest relations. Apparently all you need to do to get one is have a hangnail, because frequently when I enter a Fastpass line these days, more families have those than actual Fastpasses.

All of this means that frequently, there are way more people entering the Fastpass line at a time than the system ever intended. Thus, it is my opinion that the entire system needs a massive overhaul - something that can be better regulated.
 

the-reason14

Well-Known Member
I love fastpasses. I use them as often and as much as I can. Yes the system is flawed. I could careless though. I know how to use it to it's full advantage. I am happy.
 

stlbobby

Well-Known Member
The system itself is designed with the assumption that the "return window" is enforced.

This is simply not true. I was at WDW just weeks after FP's first appeared. I talked to several ride operators and a few low level managers. They were all told from the beginning to let anyone in anytime after their return time. The return time is only there as a failsafe to keep people from attempting ridiculous things like using the FP days later. The return time was never intended to control crowd flow.

They developers never wanted to make anyone choose between watching a parade or making their dining reservations and using a FP. They did not want to establish hard times to increase stress on guests.
 

thelookingglass

Well-Known Member
No, it IS true. The people who actually designed the system intended the window to be enforced. The only reason it isn't is because the powers that be would rather just let everyone in late than deal with the constant complaints that would ensue because people can't be bothered to read their own Fastpass ticket.

Also, Fastpass does nothing but INCREASE stress for EVERYONE. Yeah, you got to wait only 20 minutes for Toy Story Mania instead of 180 minutes (and the line is only that long because of Fastpass in the first place). But you had to make sure you got there at park open just to get it, and its a crowded day - unless you want to wait 90 minutes (would not be 90 minutes if Fastpass didn't exist), you won't get to ride Rock 'n' Rollercoaster without a Fastpass either. Only now that you have the Toy Story Mania Fastpass, you can't get another one until 2 pm. Now its 2 pm, and Rock 'n' Rollercoaster is out of Fastpasses.

Or theres the fact that it causes mass confusion with people. I have actually witnessed this when standing around by Pirates of the Caribbean:

Guest: Does this ride have Fastpass?
CM: No we don't, sorry.
Guest: Ugh, it figures! *begins to walk away*
CM: But our wait time is only 5 minutes!
Guest: Forget it! *keeps walking away*

I mean yeah, its that guest's own fault, but it happens a LOT more than park-savvy guests like us would think.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Nice! I knew how you felt about FP, but I didn't know about your background in Ops. I'm an Industrial Engineering major so this subject really intrigues me. I've actually wondered if you do a simulation of attractions with the FP system and without.

Probably not to the extent that the guys over at touringplans do this, but what I've done in the past, and may do in the future is largely based on estimates. The amount of Fastpasses distributed is not public knowledge.

There are estimates that would put the amount of Fastpasses distributed at 6% of an attractions hourly capacity every 5 minutes. That's very substantial. I'm not sure if that 6% number is correct, but it's an estimate I've heard. That means that in one hour 72% of an attraction's hourly capacity can be represented by Fastpass. This would also explain the 4:1 metric for Fastpass to Standby guests allowed in at the merge point.


In THEORY, the Fastpass system is functional and would not extend the standby line to longer than it would be if Fastpass didn't exist. IN THEORY. However, there are many factors that go into it so that frequently, this is not the case.

This "THEORY" would also imply that the demand from an attraction is constant regardless of the wait time. There is no way this is true.

And in addition to getting slammed, you've got people with those special, non-attraction specific, "use any time" Fastpasses, and people with special passes from guest relations. Apparently all you need to do to get one is have a hangnail, because frequently when I enter a Fastpass line these days, more families have those than actual Fastpasses.

All of this means that frequently, there are way more people entering the Fastpass line at a time than the system ever intended. Thus, it is my opinion that the entire system needs a massive overhaul - something that can be better regulated.

This is the proverbial slippery slope. Disney isn't going to question someone's disability, but a blanket policy requiring a doctor's note could work. The problem is denying a disabled person a Guest assistance pass would be a P.R. Nightmare.

I know that these passes are abused. I've seen people taking turns in a wheel chair to bypass the lines. Fortunately, this number isn't too substantial.

I say this, and when I go with my family we typically get a Guest Assistance pass for my autistic brother. The pass accommodates my brother and up to 5 guests. On recent trips, my family had 11 people in our traveling party, so what I did is took everyone's Fastpass and basically canvassed the park ahead of my family (who at 11 strong is relatively slow moving as well). A day at the Magic Kingdom would start with most of my family watching my nephew get a hair cut at the Harmony Barbershop while I went up to Jungle Cruise to get 5 Fastpasses (because we would all go on that), 3 Fastpasses for Big Thunder Mountain and 2 Fastpasses for Thunder Mountain. I would then meet up with my family by Pirates of the Caribbean and we would use a combination of the Fastpasses and Guest Assistance pass to navigate the park.

I'm sure some people would frown on this, however the reality is - given the pace my family operates we would probably accomplish the same amount of things without the guest assistance pass than we would with the pass. The difference is, I can run ahead and get passes as needed for multiple attractions than just one at a time.

There are some people that feel that a Guest Assistance card should only accommodate the disabled person and one or two guests. This is a reasonable complaint and may very well be the way to curb this issue if it becomes a growing problem. In which case, my family will simply adapt.


Also, Fastpass does nothing but INCREASE stress for EVERYONE. Yeah, you got to wait only 20 minutes for Toy Story Mania instead of 180 minutes (and the line is only that long because of Fastpass in the first place). But you had to make sure you got there at park open just to get it, and its a crowded day - unless you want to wait 90 minutes (would not be 90 minutes if Fastpass didn't exist), you won't get to ride Rock 'n' Rollercoaster without a Fastpass either. Only now that you have the Toy Story Mania Fastpass, you can't get another one until 2 pm. Now its 2 pm, and Rock 'n' Rollercoaster is out of Fastpasses.
The wait for Toy Story would still be substantial without Fastpass. I assume not everyone that uses Fastpass for Toy Story would be willing to wait in the Standby line, but at the same time, the demand for the attraction is so great that other people would presumably take their place.

To determine how long the wait time would be without Fastpass, the easiest way is to determine what the average wait time is for anyone that enters the attraction now (both Fastpass and Standby). The following are all assumptions and do not actually reflect reality:

Average Standby wait on given day: 120 minutes
Average Fastpass wait on given day: 15 minutes
Percentage of people riding the attraction through Fastpass instead of Standby queues: 60%

Under this scenario, guests are waiting an average of 57 minutes.

Or theres the fact that it causes mass confusion with people. I have actually witnessed this when standing around by Pirates of the Caribbean:

Guest: Does this ride have Fastpass?
CM: No we don't, sorry.
Guest: Ugh, it figures! *begins to walk away*
CM: But our wait time is only 5 minutes!
Guest: Forget it! *keeps walking away*

I mean yeah, its that guest's own fault, but it happens a LOT more than park-savvy guests like us would think.
Never underestimate the fact that people do little to no preparation for a Disney vacation. Whenever I get wind that someone is going on a Disney trip, I reach out to them for advice. Unfortunately, when a Disney fan starts presenting information about touring, or other advice the trip can become overwhelming for whoever is receiving that information.

It's a fine line to cross - but what I hate is when people come back and tell me how miserable their vacation was because they got stuck in long lines. That's why I typically start every conversation with someone that hasn't visited before with an explanation of the Fastpass system. Understanding how to use this system is often the difference between a good vacation and a bad vacation.
 

C.FERNIE

Well-Known Member
if you read about people giving away fast pass tickets on the boards you do see not everyone returns as i for one on huge amounts of occasion have left the park with several fast passes and i know a lot of folk do it. Yes i know i should have given them to someone it never occured to me untill i read a post here! (dunno why... stupid me lol) i was there before and after fastpass the lines are still the same... if its a busy time you wait longer.... if its a quiet time you walk on! Planning also helps weve been in a park and got as many FP as we could and left for the day and come bk at night after relaxing in the pool! We got late rones on purpose because we had a long lie and headed to the park! we would just plan ahead get the FP every two hours or so ride the rides with little wait times and leave for a couple of hours! it has always worked well! :)
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
if you read about people giving away fast pass tickets on the boards you do see not everyone returns as i for one on huge amounts of occasion have left the park with several fast passes and i know a lot of folk do it. Yes i know i should have given them to someone it never occured to me untill i read a post here! (dunno why... stupid me lol) i was there before and after fastpass the lines are still the same... if its a busy time you wait longer.... if its a quiet time you walk on! Planning also helps weve been in a park and got as many FP as we could and left for the day and come bk at night after relaxing in the pool! We got late rones on purpose because we had a long lie and headed to the park! we would just plan ahead get the FP every two hours or so ride the rides with little wait times and leave for a couple of hours! it has always worked well! :)

This is a good point. While personally I collect them, I really do encourage people to give their unused fastpasses to people. If you're in the park and you have unused Fastpasses, I recommend leaving them on a machine (where unfortunately they may be snagged by a cast member), or hand them directly to another group of people.
 

The Mom

Moderator
Premium Member
I started going to WDW in 1982, post Epcot (it was brand new) but pre DHS & AK, so I've been with and without the FP system.

I think it's better with FP. It was not unusual for there to be an hour+ wait for every attraction during the busy seasons, and waiting in a long line for every single attraction got old really fast.

At least with FP you'll get a shorter line once in a while - even if the stand-by line is just as long as in the old days.
 

C.FERNIE

Well-Known Member
I have been over at the 4th july (the most packed i have ever seen!!!!! been and ive been 3 times over 4th July, over 15 years!). FP has always worked! if you use the system and relax and take it in your stride it always works out well! I do not think FP has increased line wait times, there is too mnay factors against increasing the regular line!
 

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