Epcot....doomed from the beginning?

speck76

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Please keep an open mind when reading this.

I know that many of you are huge fans of Epcot, I am too. As many of you have realized, I am a very logical and rational person, I realize Epcot is not for everyone, and I am convinced that the general public no longer “gets” Epcot, or at least the original EPCOT Center…what is left of it.
I would ask that this not become a discussion of how the Epcot of today varies from Walt’s original vision, a vision that will never come to fruition, the closest we will get will be Celebration.

(In preparing this, I have taken quotes from the book Walt Disney’s Epcot Center, published in 1982, as well as other sources)

Let’s first take a look at how Walt’s EPCOT became EPCOT Center, we will start in 1975.

In 1975, Walt Disney Productions announced they were moving forward with plans for Epcot. Prior to WDW being built, the area on which the resort is located was swampland and scrub forest. It was far removed from any public services, and was pretty much “the middle of nowhere” (keep in mind, Orlando was a small town back then). A lot had changed since then. With the building of the Magic Kingdom and the original resorts, WDW had built a state of the art public service system, with high-tech systems seen nowhere else at that time. David Brinkley of NBC news referred to WDW as “ the most imaginative and effective piece of urban planning in America”. Along with that, WDW had issued the Epcot Building Code (which is available at the Orlando Library) and had formed the Reedy Creek Improvement District, which is the governing arm of the WDW resort land. At this time, The WDW resort was seeing 13 million visitors per year, with hotels running at 99% year around.

At this point, the planners, designers, engineers, and operators of WDW thought that they were already providing all of the services (public, government, sanitation…) that Walt’s Epcot would have provided for the near 16,000 people staying on property every day. By doing this, they were under the belief that the WDW resort ALREADY embodied Walt’s vision and philosophy of Epcot, but what was lacking was a “public focus” for new ideas and concepts, a “center” for the communication of new possibilities for the future – directly to the public.

To answer this need, they chose to develop Epcot Center, a permanent world’s fair of imagination, discovery, education, and exploration that combines the Disney entertainment and communication skills with the knowledge and predictions of authorities from industry, the academic world, and the professions. The goal of the park would be to inspire people, using and optimistic approach, to be turned on to the positive potential of the future, and will want to participate in making the choices that will shape the future.

At this time, an advisory board was formed with experts from various fields to help shape the park.

Next stop, 1976, where then CEO Card Walker made a speech to the Urban Land Institute. In the speech, he stated 4 main objectives of Epcot Center.
First, Epcot Center was to be a demonstration and proving ground for prototype concepts.
Second, it was to be a forum of the future, where ideas would be exchanged to meet the real needs of mankind.
Third, it was to be a communicator to the world, bringing new knowledge in the most effective ways to the world community.
Last, it was to be a permanent international people-to-people exchange, advancing the cause of world understanding among its citizens.


That being said, lets move on to 11/20/1981, when Martin Skalar wrote the forward to this book: (taken directly from the book)

“What we’re doing here is inventing a ‘Schweitzer Centrifuge’…that’s the way I look at the Epcot Project. If we build this correctly, if we build this beautifully, if we set an example for the world, we can change the whole damn country.

Now…my thoughts.

Starting at the 1981 point, is it too much to expect something built as a for-profit theme park, built by a for-profit company, to CHANGE THE WORLD?

Now, looking at the 1976 speech, did Epcot ever fulfill these goals, even upon opening?

Ok, more from the book.

Now, onto the main part of the book.

“The emphasis is on possibilities, since Walt Disney had an abiding faith in the ability of people the appreciate imagination and ingenuity, to recognize what was good. It was his contention, shared by his successors, that if people got the right information they would inevitably take the right action. The trick, of course, is to get people to sit still long enough for the information.”

I think this had become a major problem. I don’t believe that the general public of today has the patience or the attention span for this. It is my opinion that the vast majority of people want the 2 minute thrill, not the 20 minute experience. I feel this is very sad.


“At Epcot Center, the future is ever-evolving and fluid. While some pavilions leap forward fifty or 100 years, others emphasize that the technology available to us today will create the world of tomorrow – indeed, that the world of tomorrow is already upon us.”

While some pavilions were very forward thinking, it was the vision of the future that was changed, and made Epcot seem very dated. On the second point, it is my feeling that Innoventions nails this point very well, much better than most people give it credit for doing.

“Nor will Epcot remain static. Several displays are designed to incorporate advances as they come of age, and additional pavilions are planned into Future World’s future. Horizons, a look into the twenty-first century, is scheduled to open in 1983, and a year later The Living Seas will join the ring of pavilions. Not yet in the building stage are Life and Health, which will conduct guests on a journey through the human body, and a space pavilion, to be realized with cooperation from NASA, which will feature a simulated space station.”

Changes in the pavilions were planned from before day 1, as were the additions that have been made to date.

“While entertainment will continue to be a highly visible attraction of Epcot Center, it is the underlying educational value of Future World that is its most important contribution.”

While the show remained the same, the audience has changed. The attitudes and views of the general public has changed since 1982, but until recently, the park did not. It is my view that the park now has to over-compensate for being “behind the times”, not so much in the message, but in the delivery of the message.

I am going to wrap up now....I have more to write, but my fingers are tired.

I guess my main point is this. Epcot was a radical concept, based on a concept that had not really been that successful in America. (The 1964-65 World's Fair in NYC was supposed to attract 70 million visitors over 2 years, but only attracted 51 million). Epcot was supposed to education people and change views and actions...but is that too much to expect from a theme park?

I am interested in all of your views.
 

Expo_Seeker40

Well-Known Member
I think EPCOT Center from 1982-1994 had good intentions. One thing I personally appreciate from EPCOT Center/Epcot or however you want to call it, is that it is a permanent World's Fair, and it also has a Disney twist to it. The U.S.A. has not had a World's Fair since the early 1980s, and who knows if we will ever get another one. I know that Japan will host the 2005 World's Fair.

Permanent World's Fairs are very hard to ''take care of''. The 1967 Montreal World's Fair made it's own EPCOT Center from 1968-1981. It became so outdated and unpopular that the park was left to crumble, and only today is the park still becoming a better and fresher park ridden of any exposition.

The ones who run EPCOT Center [if it is every called that again] will need to look carefully as to how they transform the park.

EPCOT Center is designed in a very creative way. Now they really need to improve upon this, which of course woul take extensive renovations and tons of money.

So far in Future World we have of course the entrance and main mall/plaza area, though I personally don't like how it has turned out to be since 1999.

We have a place of trade shows. Communicore which later turned in to Innoventions.

We have a place of communication=Spaceship Earth, BUT we now have an empty post show. A new Earth Station would help us get in touch with the rest of EPCOT Center, and even the world.

We have a place of the sea=Living Seas

We have a place of the land=The Land ;)

We DON'T have a pavilion dedicated to air. Soarin' and so many toher creative ideas should have been placed in an Air pavilion, NOT in the land pavilion.

While we have Mission: Space, there should be fast improvents to what that pavilion provides.

In my ultimate new EPCOT Center. Future world west would consist of the following pavilions. "The world of sea" "The world of land" "The world of air" "The world of space"

In ultimate new EPCOT Center. Future World East would consist of the follwoing pavilions: "The world of energy" "the world of motion" "the world of enginuity" "the world of anatomy" "the world of phycology"

You see Horizons, was only mildly outdated, it could come back with the "world of enjinuity" I know it's a sucky name for the pavilion, but that's all I could think of.

World of Energy would be a vast improvement over the current universe of energy.

World of Motion would have a new version of "it's fun to be free". I have know idea how test track can be futuristic. It looks more like General Motors got ed off at Disney nagging at them to change "it's fun to be free", so they kept the world of motion pavilion, screwed up the transcenter, and gave us a mild and non futuristic thrill ride.

Um It keeps going on and on.

We need a new EPCOT Center. Not an Epcot. A new EPCOT Center that will bring us into the 21st century and beyond. Like classic rides that need updating in their presentation, like new AA's, sound, etc. NOT thrill rides. EPCOT Center is not that sort of a place, and current Disney managment better get their heads out of their behinds because they are still thinking that.

The architecture of the pavilions are not really outdated, and I can't believe that architecutre could alter one's opinion on a ride. The innoventions look more outdated on a technicality, than the original communicore buildings did.

Epcot right now is NOT stuck in the 80s. No No No. It is stuck in 1996, when the park was first entitled "Epcot Center" rather than EPCOT Center.

Look at the finale of SSE. Look at Innoventions, and the Universe of Energy, etc etc. All the 1990s. I wish they would bring back communcore with a modern twist. See, it's all about the twist, and that's what the new EPCOT Center needs.

They also need to add at lot more landscaping. Not the stupid Eisner fetish for a "Montanta Future", but the exotic palms trees, and flowers, than glorfiy this Florida park.

We need a new EPCOT Center that can inspire, and give hope to us once again, in a Nation and world in such crisis. Imagine that...the theme of the 1964 New York World's Fair in which Walt Disney helped in was "Peace Through Understanding", now I'm saying EPCOT Center needs to go along that boundary, but we need to have respect for the old rides, update them with new technology, etc, but still keep them, and of course give world showcase some TLC. Show us how today and tomorrow can help with national and global topics that are current.

Epcot 2004 and since 1999, has been going through some dark times. We need it to come out of that, and come back with a whole new EPCOT Center. :sohappy:

Thank you and have a happy day, as I step off of my Soap Boax. :wave
 

StevenT

New Member
I would say all of your points are pretty valid, and I must say I am impressed with the amount of supporting quotes. Your explination was well thought out. If I read it correctly what I gathered from it is basically you are saying that EPCOT is trying to entertain and educate an audiance that really just doesn't exist.

While the show remained the same, the audience has changed. The attitudes and views of the general public has changed since 1982, but until recently, the park did not. It is my view that the park now has to over-compensate for being “behind the times”, not so much in the message, but in the delivery of the message.

I particularly like that paragraph. It is true that the world has changed vastly since 1982. Technology has made some of the largest forward leaps in history over the course of the past century, particularly the later part.

Spaceship Earth describes a future of communications which is in some form or another already here. This outdated prediction of the future is prevelent throughout Future World. It is my beleif that a theme park based on the future just doesn't work simply because the technology changes so quickly, and it is very unpredictable what the future will hold.

The problem arises in that Disney has to constantly provide updates, wether it be rehabs or all new attractions to all of its parks around the world. Disney has so many things to do that it simply can not afford to pay all its attention to constantly updating Future World, which is what would need to happen to keep it in touch with the future. The resources simply aren't there to completley re-do an entire section of theme park ever 5-10 years which given the rate of technological advancement would be what would have to happen.

This is why, in my opinion that EPCOT has been a less than sucsessful park. Appologies if I rambled, it's time to go to sleep.
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
FYI

2005 is in Aichi, Japan, the Theme is "Nature's Wisdom"


2008 has not been decided, the possibilites are:

-Thessaloniki, Greece (Terra Mater : Knowledge of the Earth, Agriculture and Nutrition)
- Triest, Italy (Mobility of Knowledge)
- Zaragoza, Spain (Water and the Sustainable Development of cities)


2010 is in Shanghai, China, the theme is "Better City, Better Life"
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
StevenT said:
If I read it correctly what I gathered from it is basically you are saying that EPCOT is trying to entertain and educate an audiance that really just doesn't exist.

Exactly.

I also think it is rather short-sighted to say the Epcot is dated from a technological standpoint. Some of it is, some of it is not. I do believe some of the original attractions did not have to be changed, but the method of message delivery could have used an upgrade. While I am a fan of omni-movers, I think the general public's view could have been along the lines of "all the rides are the same".
 

MKCP 1985

Well-Known Member
The board ate my first attempt at a reply!

Ok, here goes:

Speck 76 said: "I guess my main point is this. Epcot was a radical concept, based on a concept that had not really been that successful in America. (The 1964-65 World's Fair in NYC was supposed to attract 70 million visitors over 2 years, but only attracted 51 million). Epcot was supposed to education people and change views and actions...but is that too much to expect from a theme park?"

Do you know how many theme parks/amusement parks would love to draw 51 million visitors over 2 years? EPCOT Center opened in 1982. That same year, a World's Fair was held in Knoxville, Tennessee. Two years later, New Orleans hosted the World's Fair. There has not been another in the United States, yet EPCOT lives on, open every day since 1982.

You might infer from that EPCOT put the World's Fair out of business, at least in the USA. It might seem to struggle to find its niche, yet it is the second most attended theme park in the USA year after year.

My point, I guess, is that there is a demographic of people who desire the "world village" experience and they find the EPCOT park fills that for them. The countries and their restaurants are the biggest attraction at EPCOT, despite all the money spent on Future World pavilions.

On a side note, I think EPCOT's attendance numbers profit from people who take extended trips to Walt Disney World primarily to visit the Magic Kingdom, but visit EPCOT on Extra Days, or even make a special trip just to eat at a specific restaurant.

While EPCOT has its fans who rank it number one, I submit it cannot be seriously disputed that EPCOT benefits more from people who visit it after being first drawn to the Magic Kindgom than vice versa. Stated differently, most people come to see Cinderella's castle and Mickey Mouse at the Magic Kingdom and visit EPCOT because they have purchased multi day tickets and so, why not?
 

StevenT

New Member
Yes, some of the attractions still have an enormous insight into the future that is true. I agree totally that the delivery method needs an upgrade. It seems to me that the average mindless public goes on things for the ride more than the message it conveys. Therefore they think as you said that all omni-movers are the same. What needs to be done is not necessarily a complete replacing of pavilions like what was done is TT and MS, but rather a slight re-tooling to appeal and attract today's audiance to the educational messages. WDI really needs the freedom to develop not a thrill ride, but a way of conveying the EPCOT message, but making it seem like the public isn't even learning because honestly when most people feel like they are being educated then they stop paying attention.
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
MKCP 1986 said:
Do you know how many theme parks/amusement parks would love to draw 51 million visitors over 2 years? EPCOT Center opened in 1982. That same year, a World's Fair was held in Knoxville, Tennessee. Two years later, New Orleans hosted the World's Fair. There has not been another in the United States, yet EPCOT lives on, open every day since 1982.

Most parks would drool over that number....but don't look at 51 million in this case as good....it was only 2/3 the original goal. Most parks only getting 2/3 their budgeted attendance would be out of business.


MKCP 1986 said:
On a side note, I think EPCOT's attendance numbers profit from people who take extended trips to Walt Disney World primarily to visit the Magic Kingdom, but visit EPCOT on Extra Days, or even make a special trip just to eat at a specific restaurant.

While EPCOT has its fans who rank it number one, I submit it cannot be seriously disputed that EPCOT benefits more from people who visit it after being first drawn to the Magic Kindgom than vice versa. Stated differently, most people come to see Cinderella's castle and Mickey Mouse at the Magic Kingdom and visit EPCOT because they have purchased multi day tickets and so, why not?

You are right. More people come to Orlando for the Magic Kingdom than for Epcot. But with the continued expansion of WDW, each new park is cutting into Epcot's attendance. Would someone coming for 3 days, or for the weekend, go to Epcot, or will they choose MGM or DAK?
 

figmentmom

Well-Known Member
speck76 said:
You are right. More people come to Orlando for the Magic Kingdom than for Epcot. But with the continued expansion of WDW, each new park is cutting into Epcot's attendance. Would someone coming for 3 days, or for the weekend, go to Epcot, or will they choose MGM or DAK?

My favorite park is EPCOT. That said, it often seems to me that once it was built, it was left pretty much to run itself, with a minimum of updating and rethinking. The future keeps turning into the present, making keeping ahead of the times difficult and expensive.

Most families are drawn to WDW by the Magic Kingdom, of course; on our first trips there, we had to literally drag our kids to the other parks. The folks at WDW are well aware of that, and I believe they have deliberately underemphasized the educational aspects of EPCOT simply to avoid scaring off families who are there to be entertained, not educated. (Once we'd gotten the kids to visit EPCOT, it became our entire family's favorite park.) Have they "dumbed down" the park? No, I don't think so, but I can also see your point about the current park failing to tailor the delivery of the park's messages in such a way that current audiences can get the point.
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
figmentmom said:
Most families are drawn to WDW by the Magic Kingdom, of course; on our first trips there, we had to literally drag our kids to the other parks. The folks at WDW are well aware of that, and I believe they have deliberately underemphasized the educational aspects of EPCOT simply to avoid scaring off families who are there to be entertained, not educated.

I agree. The average visitor to WDW is not a local, or even from the state of Florida. For most families, a trip to Orlando is a MAJOR investment, and I don't think the general public prefers to spends thousands of dollars to be educated....they will do that when they ship the kids to college.

Another unmentioned aspect is the sponsorship of the Epcot pavilions. I think there are at least 3 "types" of sponsors.

1. Product sponsors (Kodak, Coke, Nestle). Epcot can have a bit of an edge with these sponsors, as they are basically paying to have their products sold in the parks.

2. Corporate Sponsors (GM, AT&T, United Technologies) These sponsors I think have more of an edge on Epcot. They can make more demands, as they have a less measurable return on their large investment. (I think AT&T once hada booth in Innoventions trying to get people to switch long distance companies....but who wants to do THAT in a theme park). How did a company like UT ever measure the value of sponsoring The Living Seas....or could they even do so (and maybe that is why they are gone) Epcot was orginally developed for these companies to be leaders and educators to the public, but alas, profit margins always take precident.

3. International Sponsors in WS. Except for The American Adventure (which has product sponsors), no country pavilion has a MAJOR attraction (Maelstrom was nowhere near the investement of AA). How can a country justify a huge investement in a foreign theme park. The United States has the largest economy in the world, but how would you feel if your tax dollars were being spent to build an attraction overseas? How can a small country like Spain or Switzerland justify to their residents spending money on such a product? Lastly, how many foreign companies would find it valuable to do business in the US as a corporate sponsor?
 

ClemsonTigger

Naturally Grumpy
You have some good points

Speck,
You have some good points, most related to Futureworld that has really never hit stride. I would push back however in regard to the park overall, and specifically World Showcase. This is a dynamic and educational community. My wife and I love spending the time with the international cast members, and with events like food and wine, flower and garden and concert series, it is becoming an integrated, shared experience. I feel this is at the heart of the original concept.

I do have hope that the front of the park will soon be able to find its identity.
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Don't get me wrong. I feel Epcot does do many things well. I LOVE both the Flower & Garden and the Food & Wine festivals. They are both very well done, and seem to be very popular. One idea, could more festivals be created? What about an International Art Festival, or a Music Festival, or Drama Festival? Would Epcot be better if it was always in Festival mode?

I like the World Showcase...I am there at least 1 night every week enjoying dinner and fireworks. I do a lot of people watching in the parks, and I do here a significant amount of talk about the countries being boring, or that the food and merchandise is too expensive, or even why pay admission for a shipping mall.

I do like a lot of the little shows in the countries, but I feel more could be done. Some of those shows have been running for years, and could stand to be replaced.

Also, 4 movies. I am probably a bigger fan than most of the Circlevision concept, but O'Canada is very dated, as is the Norway film. I think a few of the theaters could be better used for something else....maybe a live action show.
 

MKCustodial

Well-Known Member
speck76 said:
I think this had become a major problem. I don’t believe that the general public of today has the patience or the attention span for this. It is my opinion that the vast majority of people want the 2 minute thrill, not the 20 minute experience. I feel this is very sad.

While some pavilions were very forward thinking, it was the vision of the future that was changed, and made Epcot seem very dated.

While the show remained the same, the audience has changed. The attitudes and views of the general public has changed since 1982, but until recently, the park did not. It is my view that the park now has to over-compensate for being “behind the times”, not so much in the message, but in the delivery of the message.

Great replies from all. I quoted the sections of the original post that I feel reflect my way of thinking.

The major problem of the Disney Company, and probably from many other companies as well, as a whole, is that they're not thinking FORWARD, as the Disney team tended to do in the beginning. Instead, they're foccusing on numbers and what those numbers show what people want NOW. The huge flaw in this line of thought is that, ten years down the line, who's to say people will want what they wanted ten years prior?

When Disneyland opened, it was something never before seen. People adapted to that. Decades later, when EPCOT Center opened, again, it was something completely fresh and original. It took a while to pick up but, despite what many think are general thoughts, as lots of posts here pointed out, it's still the second most visited park (and I for one can't believe it's solely because of Test Track and Mission: Space).

Of course, a Company is out to make profit and appease its investors and the market. But I wish the suits could forget the numbers and start thinking about the future. The way the world economy is nowadays makes it virtually impossible for a company to sponsor a theme park attraction and keep up with the updates needed in order to keep up with the advances of science and culture. That's why I think we're seeing many of the sponsorships go.

I don't think it's about nostalgic feelings or a matter of comparison, but EPCOT Center lasted for about 12 years. I don't know if Epcot will last that long without another major change. If in 10 or 15 years, the new generation loathes thrill rides, Disney will be in serious trouble! :lol: Seriously, though, I'm not taking a jab at thrill lovers or anything, since many of the classic attractions provide thrills, like Big Thnuder or Space Mountain. But when they were built, they did so thinking ahead. And with a project like EPCOT, you REALLy gotta think ahead if you wanna succeed.
 

MouseRight

Active Member
speck76 said:
I guess my main point is this. Epcot was a radical concept, based on a concept that had not really been that successful in America. (The 1964-65 World's Fair in NYC was supposed to attract 70 million visitors over 2 years, but only attracted 51 million). QUOTE]

My point - maybe a little off topic. I am not sure that I agree that the NY World's Fair was not successful. As someone who went 13 times over the 2 years, I distinctly remember that every time I went the fair was bumper to bumper people. I don't consider 51 million people a failure. The 70 Million number was probably Robert Moses' (The World's Fair creator and leader) marketing propoganda. Also, in terms of Disney's involvement, it was critical to the future of Disney in so many ways - Audio Animatroncs technology, future Disney rides, proving the theme park experience attracts millions of people, etc.

Without the NY World's Fair and its successes, especially to Disney, the THeme Park experience, woudl still be one of roller coasters, carnival rides, and boring rides like a boat ride through a bunch of StoryBook character statues. Just think, without Disney, all theme parks would look like Six Flags.
 

MKCP 1985

Well-Known Member
Yeah, the only reason those fairs were considered failures was because the promoters inflated the numbers of what to reasonably expect in terms of tourist dollars in order to secure financing for infrastructure improvements (and in some instances to, hmm, line their own pockets?)

Good points!
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Take from this website

"In some ways the World's Fair two year run was a success and yet monetarily it was not. It was predicted that the fair would attract 70 million people over its two seasons. But after the end of the first season, attendance was running 25% below projections and a $10,000,000 deficit. After the fair's bland and dull fun zone failed to attract patrons, e better entertainment was added, but that did little to help. Fortunately a surge of attendance, 7 million people during the final three weeks, boosted attendance to 51 million. It was a new record for international expositions. The Fair, however, did not generate enough money to pay back notes and to finish Flushing Meadow Park in the ambitious style that Robert Moses hoped. It can best be remebered as a grand showcase of the dynamic changes that took palace between the 1930's and 1960's. "

On another note, the 1982 Worlds Fair was finacially successful, it made $57....I am not making that up.
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
tigsmom said:
The park was beautiful, is still used today (you saw MIB didn't you), but many adults (at least the ones I knew at the time) thought it should have been located in another neighborhood.

Back in the day, many public works projects were unfortunately designed with bad motives, many which were reflective of the political and socio-economic instabilities that were happening at that time. (For example, the expressways built in Detroit were built through/on-top-of the worst neighborhoods, most of which were inhabited by minorities and New Americans).....a sad sign of those times. :(

I don't really want to get into that, not on these forums, but that could explain some things. :confused:
 

dxwwf3

Well-Known Member
speck76 said:
I think this had become a major problem. I don’t believe that the general public of today has the patience or the attention span for this. It is my opinion that the vast majority of people want the 2 minute thrill, not the 20 minute experience. I feel this is very sad.

Well there you go. Hit the nail on the head. I would give anything to have a late 80's Future World back. Now I am old enough to appreciate all of those great things and the great music. But the average theme park guest lives in a day where there is cable television, high speed internet, and cell phones that all rely on being "fast". Patience is a lost art. I even get frustrated if my cable goes out for 10 minutes during a storm. We want things now and we want them quick. Just look at the time differences between the original Tiki Room and Journey Into Imagination compared to the newer versions. The new attractions are much shorter. It seems that people can't even sit through a 15 minute show anymore.

I do love the current Future World, so don't get me wrong. It has a wonderful feel to it and has some good attractions. But the pavilion idea seems to be dead and that is just plain sad. We will never see another Wonders of Life where you could easily spend a couple of hours. I wish we could see new Horizons, World of Motion, or Dreamflight type rides, but I fear that we will not.

As far as Epcot being a failure of a park, I wouldn't say that at all (And I'm not saying that any of you have said that). Epcot Center is a household name and it was even said in a Redman rap song (which I can't repeat the lyrics :lol: ). So people know the Epcot name. I'd say that if people spend more than one day on Disney property, Epcot will be that second day.

While MGM is by far my favorite park, Epcot is gaining on it. With Soarin and HOPEFULLY a Brother Bear Rapids Ride in Canada, Epcot is getting better. But I do long for the old Epcot Center days where you could go to Communicore and have your picture drawn by a robot (I still have mine with my old Figment hat on :lol: I was only 4 or 5) or choose your ending on Horizons. But sadly those days are gone.
 

speck76

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
speck76 said:
To answer this need, they chose to develop Epcot Center, a permanent world’s fair of imagination, discovery, education, and exploration that combines the Disney entertainment and communication skills with the knowledge and predictions of authorities from industry, the academic world, and the professions. The goal of the park would be to inspire people, using and optimistic approach, to be turned on to the positive potential of the future, and will want to participate in making the choices that will shape the future.

I think this paragraph is key to both future success and past/current issues.

Let's cut the paragraph into 2 parts:

1. To answer this need, they chose to develop Epcot Center, a permanent world’s fair of imagination, discovery, education, and exploration that combines the Disney entertainment and communication skills with the knowledge and predictions of authorities from industry, the academic world, and the professions.

I think part 1 is still possible, and in many areas is still happening. Let's look at the new attractions over the last 10 years.

Ellen's Energy Adventure I think this attraction accomplishes this goal better than the original. The goal states that the attractions will use Disney Entertainmant and communication skills. The original attraction was very dry and academic, the new attraction is allows people to learn and discover, but does so in a more entertaining way.

Journey into Imagination with Figment While I don't enjoy this attraction as much as the original, it still allows people to discover how their senses work...although I don't think that was ever the intended purpose of the pavilion.

Test Track While I think Test Track gets written off by many fans, I think it still manages to accomplish this goal. It educates and lets people discover the testing that goes into today's autos. It does so using Disney entertainment and communication skills (a ride system). It does so using the knowledge of General Motors.

Mission Space This is all about using your imagination and discovering a new sensation, and it does so in a very entertaining way.

2. The goal of the park would be to inspire people, using and optimistic approach, to be turned on to the positive potential of the future, and will want to participate in making the choices that will shape the future.

I think part 2 is the problem. I think it is too much to expect this goal from a theme park. Even if they do a great job at trying to acheive this goal, I don't think the audience is so receptive.
 
EPCOT, Epcot or Epcot Center

I am really enjoying this thread. It is itself educational and enlightening.

I believe one of the most important aspects of Epcot Center is its ability to educate and inspire on an almost subliminal level. I have always felt as though I exist in a city of the future when I am there. Surrounded by "what could be" in a state of reality. The park being a representation of what is possible with the right blend of technology and knowledge. In that way, it perfectly embodies the concept that Walt originally had for the place.

I do agree that updates to the technology need to be made. However, I must emphasize that the basic concepts, communication, energy, space, air, land & agriculture, transportation, imagination, are timeless. These ideas are just as valid in our world today as ever. Pavillions, attractions, etc. should continue to reflect these ideas in a way that allows for education and inspiration to continue but adjusted to modern societies attitudes and values. While I believe Mission Space is not in and of itself a bad thing, I must say that very little is learned from the ride. Rock'n Rollercoaster, though not in Epcot, is an example of a great ride but I don't feel inspired by the possiblities of man after riding it, in fact, it hasn't anything to do with movies so why MGM for its location? I digress.

I felt very inspired by Horizons and I learned alot too! I've learned tons from SE and it's presentation has inspired me to persue the history of cultures through an understanding of the role that communication has played in world history. Epcot is not JUST about the future in concept, it is also about learning from the past to derive the direction and possibilities that lead to future discoveries. This is why SE in its current form is more timely and appropriate than most people give it credit for. Does it need updating, certainly. Does it need gutting and a complete remake, certainly not. innoventions is the hands on exhibit meant to show the reality of near-future technologies but these new inventions must be approached with an understanding of their use in a society bred from a solid understanding of its past. That is what the pavilions are for.

It is obvious that each of us holds Epcot dear in our feelings and each idea shared here is an example of the very inspiration, the driving of thought, that Epcot was built to bring about. In this way, Epcot is an unconditional success.

Thanks for reading and I will be following the continuance of this thread with great interest!
 

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