SENTINEL: Disney reverses teens' ban for life but defends handling of incident

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
The latest....

Orlando Sentinel said:
Disney reverses teens' ban for life but defends handling of incident

Scott Powers and Henry Pierson Curtis

Sentinel Staff Writers

10:09 PM EDT, June 28, 2007

The four Florida State University football prospects who were kicked out of Downtown Disney for loitering last week and banned for life from Walt Disney World can now come back.

Disney World announced Thursday that it has decided to reduce the sanctions against the four high-schoolers, whose banishment last weekend amplified a controversy about Disney's recent efforts to reduce teen loitering and sparked accusations of racial profiling. All four of the students are 17 years old and black.

Disney officials, after talking with the mother of one of the teens, decided to revise the trespass warnings so that the four are banned only from Downtown Disney -- not from the theme parks, water parks or other parts of Disney World. And the Downtown Disney ban will last only for one year, not a lifetime.

That means that, shortly after they are ready to graduate from high school next spring -- they'll all be seniors this fall -- the ban will be lifted entirely.

But the families of the teens were uncertain Thursday how to respond to Disney's decision. One parent said they would discuss it and get back to Disney today.

"We were hoping they would lift the ban entirely. We felt like they shouldn't have been banned at all. We also wanted an apology," said Mark Nugent, the stepfather of Vincent Williams, a football star at Ridge Community High School in Polk County. "It looks like we're not getting either of those two things."

Final decision, not an offer

Disney has not changed its mind about the incident last Friday and is not contemplating an apology, spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said. She also said the move to reduce the sanctions was a final decision by the resort, not an offer.

Polak would not elaborate on what had emerged during discussions with the four teens' families that led Disney World to scale back its sanctions against the students, all of whom have given oral commitments to attend Florida State University in 2008.

"Our review of the incident has not changed our determination that the behavior of these four individuals was not appropriate," Polak said.

Crackdown on loitering

The four students -- who, in addition to Williams, also included Nigel Carr, Avis Commack and Nickolas Moody -- were kicked off Disney property as part of larger crackdown on youth loitering this month that has resulted in dozens of trespass warnings and banishments.

Polak said Thursday's decision does not affect the other trespass cases, though Disney could reconsider any case if asked.

Disney World had grown concerned this spring about teen loitering and the possibility of an emerging street-gang presence at Downtown Disney, a complex of stores, restaurants, nightclubs and shows.

So two weeks ago, Disney security officers, bolstered by Orange County sheriff's deputies, began a late-night crackdown on Fridays and Saturdays, hoping to drive out loitering youth before trouble could begin.

Those youths who cannot convince Disney security officers that they have a good reason to be in Downtown Disney late at night are told to leave; those who then refuse to do so are issued trespass warnings banning them from Disney World for life and are expelled from the property.

When the Orlando Sentinel obtained 46 Disney World trespass-warning documents from the past two weekends, all but one turned out to have been issued to black or Hispanic visitors.

That led some of the family members, including Nugent and a Philadelphia-based civil-rights lawyer -- Adrian J. Moody, father of Nickolas, one of the other four football players, Nickolas Moody -- to openly question whether Disney's security was using racial profiling to target and drive out minority youth.

The elder Moody, however, sounded encouraged Thursday by Disney's response.

"That makes me feel a little better," he said. "I think they should give these kids some kind of an apology, but I need to look into this more."

Disney has maintained that the crackdown has been aimed at loitering youth and possible gang members regardless of ethnicity or race. The four players who were banned late last Friday had loitered for more than an hour, responded inappropriately to security officers, and refused to leave when told to go, Disney officials have said.

Sheriff's Office concurs

The sheriff's office has backed the resort up and agreed Thursday that the incident had been handled properly.

"The Orange County Sheriff's Office from the very beginning of this case took appropriate action at the request of Walt Disney World and issued proper trespass warnings," sheriff's Capt. Mark Strobridge said. "It is and remains Walt Disney World's decision to set the guidelines and enforce trespass warnings as they see fit."

Polak would not elaborate on what had emerged during discussions with the four teens' families that led Disney World to scale back its sanctions against the students, all of whom have given oral commitments to attend Florida State University in 2008.

There is no formal appeals process for lifetime trespass bans, but the company does review trespass warnings and listens whenever people want to discuss them, Polak said.

Other people who think they have been unfairly banished from the resort can always call and ask to discuss their cases, she said. She suggested people could start with the Disney World general switchboard, 407-824-2222.

Scott Powers can be reached at spowers@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-5441. Henry Pierson Curtis can be reached at 407-420-5257 or hcurtis@orlandosentinel.com.
 

kcnole

Well-Known Member
I still think the latest have been racially motivated. I wonder if I, a white male in my 20's were to go just sit around DTD, if I would be asked to leave. Nowhere did it say they did anything wrong except take exception to being told to leave. I'm sure they felt they were being singled out for their race, in which case I'd have probably been snippy too.

There has been no evidence that they were harassing people, cursing loudly, shoplifting. They were just young black men hanging out. I guess thats a crime to Disney now. If they were doing something worse than just hanging out then I'd have no problem with it, and if its shown that they were then I'll reverse my opinion. But until then, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
Its a PR move..... they had no choice....
This is why I would probably suck at being a PR guy but I would have had a lot more respect for Disney or any company for that matter if they stuck to their guns. I would have loved to see a Disney rep come out and say that these individuals were told the consequences and they did it anyway so sucks for them.
 

sbkline

Well-Known Member
With millions of guests every year, and thousands of employees, how would Disney enforce a "ban for life" anyway? If those kids were to come back next week, I bet the only ones who would have any clue who they were would be the ones who dealt with them in this incident. And Disney is such a big place, and there are thousands of other faces to blend in with, that it be very unlikely that they would be noticed.

Since they were fingerprinted, I guess the police could forward those fingerprints and they would go into the turnstile system, so that the turnstiles would reject them if they tried to enter the parks. But there are plenty of other things they could do and places they could go on property where no CM would have any clue who they are.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
With millions of guests every year, and thousands of employees, how would Disney enforce a "ban for life" anyway? If those kids were to come back next week, I bet the only ones who would have any clue who they were would be the ones who dealt with them in this incident. And Disney is such a big place, and there are thousands of other faces to blend in with, that it be very unlikely that they would be noticed.

Since they were fingerprinted, I guess the police could forward those fingerprints and they would go into the turnstile system, so that the turnstiles would reject them if they tried to enter the parks. But there are plenty of other things they could do and places they could go on property where no CM would have any clue who they are.
The lifetime ban would only really come into play if someone with a ban came on property and got into some sort of trouble, otherwise it is very unlikely that anyone would know if they were there. The biometric finger scan doest not gather enough information for it to be effective in something like this. Basically if little Johnny is bad and gets a lifetime ban from loitering at DTD and returns to the parks and gets in trouble again they will be arrested for violating a trespass warrant along with whatever else they did. I don't know for sure but I would imagine their name might also be flagged in the reservation system but there would be issues with that as well. As weird as my name is I know that there are 2 others with the same name so it would also have to be linked with other information as DOB, address etc. to be of any use.
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
With millions of guests every year, and thousands of employees, how would Disney enforce a "ban for life" anyway? If those kids were to come back next week, I bet the only ones who would have any clue who they were would be the ones who dealt with them in this incident. And Disney is such a big place, and there are thousands of other faces to blend in with, that it be very unlikely that they would be noticed.

Since they were fingerprinted, I guess the police could forward those fingerprints and they would go into the turnstile system, so that the turnstiles would reject them if they tried to enter the parks. But there are plenty of other things they could do and places they could go on property where no CM would have any clue who they are.

I'm only *sigh*ing because there have already been so many threads on the incident, and this very question has been asked so many times. Sometimes I feel people don't even bother reading, they just post...

The ban, were it still in place, is there so that if the banned person comes back and causes any sort of ruckus, even if it's minor, they could be arrested for trespassing. Someone who is banned but goes back and behaves himself won't be drawing attewntion to himself anyway. But that's the thing, it makes the offender have to behave & blend in.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
This is why I would probably suck at being a PR guy but I would have had a lot more respect for Disney or any company for that matter if they stuck to their guns. I would have loved to see a Disney rep come out and say that these individuals were told the consequences and they did it anyway so sucks for them.

Dude, corporations buckle at the thought of stomaching race problems. NBC and CBS caved - completely buckled - over the entire Imus situation.

I don't blame Disney for wanting to "fix" the situation and get them off the front page. Which leads me to wonder if they were any other ethnicity, parents weren't Disney managers or Civil Rights attorneys, or eventual recruits for a top college football program, would this have even made the newspaper?
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
Reading between the lines of that article it sounds like there is more to this story than Disney or the kids are letting on.

I like this quote:
Those youths who cannot convince Disney security officers that they have a good reason to be in Downtown Disney late at night are told to leave; those who then refuse to do so are issued trespass warnings banning them from Disney World for life and are expelled from the property.
Sounds like a good policy to me.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
Dude, corporations buckle at the thought of stomaching race problems. NBC and CBS caved - completely buckled - over the entire Imus situation.

I don't blame Disney for wanting to "fix" the situation and get them off the front page. Which leads me to wonder if they were any other ethnicity, parents weren't Disney managers or Civil Rights attorneys, or eventual recruits for a top college football program, would this have even made the newspaper?
You are exactly right. Had these guys just been regular Joe's we would have never heard of it. Also it does not hurt that it happened at Disney either. Virtually every mall in America does the same thing Disney is doing right now but we don't hear a peep about it.

I do wish that corporations would grow a spine and fight some of these accusations. Right now all someone has to do is cry race card and people loose their jobs. Even though in the short term it is better to cut out the offending party is sets a bad president. Back in the day Disney would almost always settle any lawsuit that was filed against them regardless if it had any merit simply because it was cheaper to do so. Because of this there is a suit filed against Disney daily. Disney has finally stared fighting them but they dug a very deep hole for themselves to get out of.
 

BiggerTigger

Well-Known Member
I still think the latest have been racially motivated. I wonder if I, a white male in my 20's were to go just sit around DTD, if I would be asked to leave. Nowhere did it say they did anything wrong except take exception to being told to leave. I'm sure they felt they were being singled out for their race, in which case I'd have probably been snippy too.

There has been no evidence that they were harassing people, cursing loudly, shoplifting. They were just young black men hanging out. I guess thats a crime to Disney now. If they were doing something worse than just hanging out then I'd have no problem with it, and if its shown that they were then I'll reverse my opinion. But until then, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
Regardless of what their race/color/demeanor was Disney asked them to leave. Had these young men acted in a different manor after they were asked to leave they would not have been facing expolsion. When they were approached, they should have handled the situation like young adults, not "{respond} inappropriately to security officers, and refused to leave when told to go".
My parents taught me that when approached by any person of authority that I act appropriate. I may not agree with how they treat me or what they say to me, but it is best to not "challenge authority" until I have all the facts. The best thing they should have done was politely ask why they are being asked to leave or just leave for the night and come back another day.
As head coach of FSU, I would seriously consider not signing them if they can not act appropriately. High School students or not, the are old enough to know how to respect people and how to properly behave.
 

carolina_yankee

Well-Known Member
You are exactly right. Had these guys just been regular Joe's we would have never heard of it. Also it does not hurt that it happened at Disney either. Virtually every mall in America does the same thing Disney is doing right now but we don't hear a peep about it.

I was part of a mall management team in another state that routinely banned all kinds of shoppers (mostly unruly teens), so I agree that this happens all the time. However, Disney's adjustment of the discipline also happens all the time in other venues. There were several times that management overturned the ban, shortened its duration, or placed other conditions (like banned until age 18 unless accompanied by an adult). This was always based on the the contriteness of the person asking for leniency and the circumstances of the banning. Occasionally, good teens push limits and won't be a problem again.

Have to say that we also had a race perception problem, and we had to take steps to deal with that. In Disney's case, it sounds like most of the DD bannings are for people of color, but over-all park-wide bannings aren't. That's an interesting distinction that I think merits some sort of policy review.
 

Iakona

Member
You are exactly right. Had these guys just been regular Joe's we would have never heard of it. Also it does not hurt that it happened at Disney either. Virtually every mall in America does the same thing Disney is doing right now but we don't hear a peep about it.

I do wish that corporations would grow a spine and fight some of these accusations. Right now all someone has to do is cry race card and people loose their jobs. Even though in the short term it is better to cut out the offending party is sets a bad president. Back in the day Disney would almost always settle any lawsuit that was filed against them regardless if it had any merit simply because it was cheaper to do so. Because of this there is a suit filed against Disney daily. Disney has finally stared fighting them but they dug a very deep hole for themselves to get out of.

I think this case has a couple of unique aspects that make Disney more willing to "loosen" up the punishment.

As mentioned, who these kids are and who their parents are is playing into this.

Also, the statistics on who has been banned is also playing badly for Disney.

Now, I am not saying that any of this points to Disney being racist in these policies, but they obviously believe that it is their best interest to get this out of the news cycle as soon as possible.

Personally, I think they are doing the right thing in enforcing this and hope they keep it up. I would not be surprised to see them begin issuing shorter bans for lesser offenses. A tiered approach might be a better policy; loitering & loud is one thing; aggressive, violent or threatening is another.

Based on the info we have now I think what probably happened was that these kids were in a group and the "pack mentality" took over and they were being loud and obnoxious (basically just like any group of teenagers regardless of race when in a group). I think a year or two ban would have appropriate.
 

Iakona

Member
I still think the latest have been racially motivated. I wonder if I, a white male in my 20's were to go just sit around DTD, if I would be asked to leave. Nowhere did it say they did anything wrong except take exception to being told to leave. I'm sure they felt they were being singled out for their race, in which case I'd have probably been snippy too.

There has been no evidence that they were harassing people, cursing loudly, shoplifting. They were just young black men hanging out. I guess thats a crime to Disney now. If they were doing something worse than just hanging out then I'd have no problem with it, and if its shown that they were then I'll reverse my opinion. But until then, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

Actually, one of the articles said they attempted to enter a 21+ club. This would have drawn extra attention to them.

Also, if it was racist why weren't all banned for life? Only the 3 that defied security were. A fourth was not tresspassed.

Could it also be that because they are black and have experienced this in the past that they felt this was another case of harrassment even if security had reason to be watching them? Interesting dynamic where a group of black teenagers (who most likely have been harrased in the past in other situations) were predisposed to assign nefarious intentions to security even though these particualr teens tried to enter a 21+ club and brought attention to themselves.
 

wdwmomof3

Well-Known Member
I think that the decision to reduce the ban from a lifetime to a year is fair. I really think that a life time ban was a little much. Now if they had been caught with a gun or a concealed weapon or if they were fighting with another group, that would be different.

Like I said before, if everyone would just follow the rules and have respect for themselves and others, things like this would just not happen. What is so hard about doing that?:hammer:
 

BiggerTigger

Well-Known Member
I think that the decision to reduce the ban from a lifetime to a year is fair. I really think that a life time ban was a little much. Now if they had been caught with a gun or a concealed weapon or if they were fighting with another group, that would be different.

Like I said before, if everyone would just follow the rules and have respect for themselves and others, things like this would just not happen. What is so hard about doing that?:hammer:
Everything is negotiable!
 

Vernonpush

Well-Known Member
I think this case has a couple of unique aspects that make Disney more willing to "loosen" up the punishment.

As mentioned, who these kids are and who their parents are is playing into this.

Also, the statistics on who has been banned is also playing badly for Disney.

Now, I am not saying that any of this points to Disney being racist in these policies, but they obviously believe that it is their best interest to get this out of the news cycle as soon as possible.

Personally, I think they are doing the right thing in enforcing this and hope they keep it up. I would not be surprised to see them begin issuing shorter bans for lesser offenses. A tiered approach might be a better policy; loitering & loud is one thing; aggressive, violent or threatening is another.

Based on the info we have now I think what probably happened was that these kids were in a group and the "pack mentality" took over and they were being loud and obnoxious (basically just like any group of teenagers regardless of race when in a group). I think a year or two ban would have appropriate.

Hopefully, we can see decrease in the "gangs" of "loud and obnoxious" groups at DTD and the Parks!

I hope they keep their watch out for those "Gangs of loud and obnoxious Cheerleaders":lol: . Or those "Gangs of Conventioners" (especially during the F&W Festival):lol: . But they are Guest$ with Re$ort and Park$ Admi$$ion. :shrug:
 

meekoman

Active Member
I'm so sick and tired of hearing about the "race card". I'm sure these kids were acting big and tough just because they are going to a to Division 1 football program. These are high school kids that now think they are really better than anyone else. Ego's get pushed higher and this is what you get.
 

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