Anyone else sad Mickey+Minnie's houses are going?

Lee said:

Why?
He's fairly correct about that. If you think about it...
-Mermaid is a long overdue replacement for 20k.
-Dwarf Mine is a replacement for SWSA.
-a new water play area replaces Donald's boat.
-Be Our Guest replaces several closed food locations.

Sure, it's gonna be nice, but other than gaining an extra Dumbo there isn't a lot of net gain involved.
Refurb describes it pretty well. Why else do you think they arent calling it an "expansion" internally any more?

Click to expand...

Yes...as a whole...but I can see where he sorta misspoke because it is a FANTASYLAND EXPANSION as it did expand into ToonTown... Not an entire park expansion.

WDW1974 said:

TDL blows the MK away in every significant category I can think of ... by a HUGE margin. Fanbois would simply wet themselves if they saw a park that clean, that well maintained, that full of attractions and always fresh entertainment (like say three parades shown a total of five times in one day) with every eatery open and no merchandise out in walkways while shops become storage facilities.

I don't think for a second that the F-land rehab (hate the word expansion because it really isn't when talking about space and capacity) will do anything beyond making the MK a lot nicer place to visit.

Right now, the only thing preventing me from placing HKDL above it is the lack of attractions (I am now a proud HKDL APer, for full disclosure). It beats MK in cleanliness, show quality, CMs, food quality and price, and entertainment (especially seasonal). And I'm more excited about the two new E-Tix coming (as well as the lands they'll occupy) to it than I am for Mermaid (which I can ride in Anaheim), a short SW mine train and Dueling Dumbos.

Click to expand...

TDR as a whole is phenomenal; the American parks will never reach that level of quality because it isn't ingrained within our culture. Example: the Japanese expect their quick service food to be served on real plates, and Americans are happy with turkey legs. But I won't pretend the outdated TDL versions of Fantasyland and Tomorrowland can compare to any of the others around the world, except for HKDL. Pooh's Hunny Hunt aside, Florida's Fantasyland will look better than TDL's.

But overall—yeah, TDR really is that good. And the sad part is that since the culture expects it, the guests don't fully understand just how fantastic they have it. They appreciate it, but I don't think they realize how superior TDR is to the other resorts.

Lee said:

Why?
He's fairly correct about that. If you think about it...
-Mermaid is a long overdue replacement for 20k.
-Dwarf Mine is a replacement for SWSA.
-a new water play area replaces Donald's boat.
-Be Our Guest replaces several closed food locations.

Sure, it's gonna be nice, but other than gaining an extra Dumbo there isn't a lot of net gain involved.
Refurb describes it pretty well. Why else do you think they arent calling it an "expansion" internally any more?

Click to expand...

Yep, and compared to my previous list of the MK 25 years ago, it looks even worse:

- 20K
- Skyway
- Diamond Horseshoe Revue
- Original Tiki Room
- Larger/more diverse shopping areas in AdvL and FrL
- Tomorrowland Terrace dining
- Adventureland Veranda dining
- Pirate/Parrot dining
- Various shops on Main Street (Magic Store, Penny Arcade, Theater)

Click to expand...

I'm happy about the new FL; I just won't pretend it's actually a *real* expansion.

As we've said several times before, the FLE addresses existing problems. It is not expected to increase attendance or provide any real capacity improvements.

It was never intended to do so.

tirian said:

But overall—yeah, TDR really is that good. And the sad part is that since the culture expects it, the guests don't fully understand just how fantastic they have it. They appreciate it, but I don't think they realize how superior TDR is to the other resorts.

Click to expand...

The reason TDR is that good, at least from what I read, is that it's owned not by Disney, but by an outside company that pays Disney for the rights to all things Disney. This probably means that Disney doesn't have to pay a dime for it. Disneyland and WDW, on the other hand, are owned by Disney, which means that they do have to pay for it, which, at times, is something they are practically allergic to doing.

mharrington said:

The reason TDR is that good, at least from what I read, is that it's owned not by Disney, but by an outside company that pays Disney for the rights to all things Disney. This probably means that Disney doesn't have to pay a dime for it. Disneyland and WDW, on the other hand, are owned by Disney, which means that they do have to pay for it, which, at times, is something they are practically allergic to doing.

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Disney used to go "above and beyond" expectations because of company pride. From the big things like maintenance and attractions, to the small things like after-dinner chocolates, Disney earned its reputation for quality. They lost focus over the last fifteen years, but seem to be drifting back toward their old standards. Eddie Sotto just talked about this regarding WDI.

WDWFREAK53 said:

Yes...as a whole...but I can see where he sorta misspoke because it is a FANTASYLAND EXPANSION as it did expand into ToonTown... Not an entire park expansion.

Click to expand...

But Fantasyland HASN'T expanded into Toontown... Towntown is being replaced by Storybook Circus... As far as I know, Storybook Circus is not a part of Fantasyland, but it's own land... maybe Lee or someone can correct me if I'm wrong?

dxer07002 said:

But Fantasyland HASN'T expanded into Toontown... Towntown is being replaced by Storybook Circus... As far as I know, Storybook Circus is not a part of Fantasyland, but it's own land... maybe Lee or someone can correct me if I'm wrong?

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This has been kicked around here before, with no clear answer to my knowledge.

The art for the circus area and the new Dumbo ride was unveiled at the same time as the Fantasyland Forest art, with no distinction between them. That's a fact. The whole package was pushed as a single Fantasyland expansion by Disney. There was talk of a Dumbo "mini-land" within Fantasyland by a lot of fans at the time.

Since then, it seems fans have come to see Storybook Circus as its own land because it is so distinct...but I'm pretty sure no official announcement has confirmed this. (Although the fact that it has an official name like SBC would seem to indicate it might end up being its own land.)

Lee said:

Why?
He's fairly correct about that. If you think about it...
-Mermaid is a long overdue replacement for 20k.
-Dwarf Mine is a replacement for SWSA.
-a new water play area replaces Donald's boat.
-Be Our Guest replaces several closed food locations.

Sure, it's gonna be nice, but other than gaining an extra Dumbo there isn't a lot of net gain involved.
Refurb describes it pretty well. Why else do you think they arent calling it an "expansion" internally any more?

Click to expand...

Just the sheer opening up of previously unused and/or underused areas of the park to guests will make this an expansion. There will be more area to disperse people on walkways and other areas, much more so than 20K ever allowed.

Id much rather have Storybook Circus be part of Fantasyland and we'd just have 6 lands.

And Im extremely pleased with the new Fantasyland. I think its going to be amazing. Im most excited about the atmosphere and theming than the rides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unkadug
Well you just threw what little credibility you had right out the window with that remark.

Lee said:

Why?
He's fairly correct about that. If you think about it...
-Mermaid is a long overdue replacement for 20k.
-Dwarf Mine is a replacement for SWSA.
-a new water play area replaces Donald's boat.
-Be Our Guest replaces several closed food locations.

Sure, it's gonna be nice, but other than gaining an extra Dumbo there isn't a lot of net gain involved.
Refurb describes it pretty well. Why else do you think they arent calling it an "expansion" internally any more?

Click to expand...

My hero!!!

Thanks for pointing out that, indeed, I know what I am talking about.

Folks seem intent on buying into PR spin and not looking at reality. The largest reason this project is happening was to increase capacity ... and it was failing miserably on those metrics before Staggs stepped in and put the Mine Train ride back in and removed (or moved to be more accurate) the princess meet-greet-and-gropes.

But when just looking at the acres involved, almost no new land is being actually expanded into for guest enjoyment (unless two retention ponds gets you all hot and bothered) ... things are just getting moved ... sure Fantasyland is expanding ... but it is taking over another land that is ceasing to exist.

The actual added capacity of attractions is sadly not much (likely just what Dumbo brings, plus the few more you'd get on Mermaid in an hour than on the old subs). Added capacity of food locales? With two of the biggest in the MK shuttered almost year round, it's just moving guests around like the old shell game ... same with shops.

Things are being added, but there's very little net gain if you look at what was open in the MK in 1993 vs. what will be open in 2013.

WDWFREAK53 said:

Yes...as a whole...but I can see where he sorta misspoke because it is a FANTASYLAND EXPANSION as it did expand into ToonTown... Not an entire park expansion.

Click to expand...

Semantics. Plain and simple.

When people hear a park is expanding they don't tend to get bogged down in whether it's just one part ... and again, the bottom line is the park is replacing lost capacity that it once had and not adding much new.

People can view it as an expansion, but that doesn't make it one in the real sense of the term.

I still see acreage that will be put to use that was NEVER used in the past as guest areas. How you can say that it's not an expansion when that is taken into account ?

Wilt Dasney said:

This has been kicked around here before, with no clear answer to my knowledge.

The art for the circus area and the new Dumbo ride was unveiled at the same time as the Fantasyland Forest art, with no distinction between them. That's a fact. The whole package was pushed as a single Fantasyland expansion by Disney. There was talk of a Dumbo "mini-land" within Fantasyland by a lot of fans at the time.

Since then, it seems fans have come to see Storybook Circus as its own land because it is so distinct...but I'm pretty sure no official announcement has confirmed this. (Although the fact that it has an official name like SBC would seem to indicate it might end up being its own land.)

Click to expand...

Made a little more sense before though because Pixie Hollow was to be part of the Fantasyland Forest.. But now, I'm not so sure..

unkadug said:

I still see acreage that will be put to use that was NEVER used in the past as guest areas. How you can say that it's not an expansion when that is taken into account ?

Click to expand...

The land was used before... B&TB takes over Ariels Grotto... Mermaid takes over 20K... Circus replaces Toontown.. What new land was expanded on?

74 is right.. it is really a refurb of previously used land...

WDW1974 said:

Folks seem intent on buying into PR spin and not looking at reality. The largest reason this project is happening was to increase capacity ... and it was failing miserably on those metrics before Staggs stepped in and put the Mine Train ride back in and removed (or moved to be more accurate) the princess meet-greet-and-gropes.

But when just looking at the acres involved, almost no new land is being actually expanded into for guest enjoyment (unless two retention ponds gets you all hot and bothered) ... things are just getting moved ... sure Fantasyland is expanding ... but it is taking over another land that is ceasing to exist.

The actual added capacity of attractions is sadly not much (likely just what Dumbo brings, plus the few more you'd get on Mermaid in an hour than on the old subs). Added capacity of food locales? With two of the biggest in the MK shuttered almost year round, it's just moving guests around like the old shell game ... same with shops.

Things are being added, but there's very little net gain if you look at what was open in the MK in 1993 vs. what will be open in 2013.

Click to expand...

I assume the Mine train will have a higher capacity than Snow White's Scary Adventures, and I'd guess that Mermaid will be twice the capacity of 20K Leagues Under the sea. I wouldn't be surprised if Dumbo's capacity doesn't quite double, and they lengthen the ride time, but it would still be an increase to capacity. Add a large dining area as well and capacity has been increased significantly.

From an attraction standpoint the net hasn't changed from 20K's closure, but in theory both "replacements" are upgrades.

dxer07002 said:

The land was used before... B&TB takes over Ariels Grotto... Mermaid takes over 20K... Circus replaces Toontown.. What new land was expanded on?

74 is right.. it is really a refurb of previously used land...

Click to expand...

All the area behind Ariel's Grotto all the way back to Magic Kingdom Drive has NEVER been used. That's a big chunk of land. BatB is basically going on virgin land.

Look at Bing Maps ...they haven't updated recently. You will see what I'm talking about.

tirian said:

TDR as a whole is phenomenal; the American parks will never reach that level of quality because it isn't ingrained within our culture. Example: the Japanese expect their quick service food to be served on real plates, and Americans are happy with turkey legs. But I won't pretend the outdated TDL versions of Fantasyland and Tomorrowland can compare to any of the others around the world, except for HKDL. Pooh's Hunny Hunt aside, Florida's Fantasyland will look better than TDL's.

But overall—yeah, TDR really is that good. And the sad part is that since the culture expects it, the guests don't fully understand just how fantastic they have it. They appreciate it, but I don't think they realize how superior TDR is to the other resorts.

Click to expand...

Well, some Americans wouldn't touch a turkey leg if you paid them ... but I certainly agree largely with your point ... except when the point starts in on the 'outdated' lands at TDL.

Now, there's no doubt that both Fantasyland and Tomorrowland are dated, but they make up for it with top notch attractions in near-PERFECT show condition (again, folks at WDW are so conditioned to things not working that they'd be shocked at how amazingly maintained those attractions are ... not one AA made a squeak, yet at WDW you expect them to sound like a '98 Buick warming up on a cold morning). Fantasyland is still charming because it has new (not really anymore) things like Hunny Hunt and Queen of Hearts (and PhilharMagic was just getting ready to debut when I was there) ... oh, it also has trees and landscaping and details too.

And I don't think OLC will allow the land to stay in its current condition (although since they maintain it, it could stay like this indefinitely) all that much longer. Same with the hodgepodge that is Tomorrowland, which I'll take any day over MK's poorly maintained tooned up version.

As to the culture ... well, that's true to a point. I'm an American and I am proud to be one. I'd like to believe we all aren't crap-loving, Taco Bell eating, anti-education/healthcare preaching, Walmart shopping bumpkins. I still expect WDW to have the standards it did in its first 25 years.

Oh, and believe it or not but I met some friends in Tokyo (one a native) who actually believes TDR isn't what it once was ... I believe him and find that very scary because MK truly comes off as ghetto compared to TDL.

Spirit...is there any hope for the WDW parks? The days of Nunis are long past but do you expect anytime soon that there will be a change for the better?

unkadug said:

I still see acreage that will be put to use that was NEVER used in the past as guest areas. How you can say that it's not an expansion when that is taken into account ?

Click to expand...

Eh...yeah, I guess technically they are using some previously backstage area, but in all honesty that little tiny piece doesn't really say "expansion" to me in anything but the most nit-picking sort of sense.

If they had kept 20K, and kept SWSA and were adding TLM, Mine Train and BATB on top of that....yeah, maybe I'd call it an expansion.
What we have now I call more a slight addition rather than a real expansion.
New Orleans square was an expansion of Disneyland. Toontown was an expansion of Disneyland. This....eh...not so much.

Don't get me wrong, I think it'll be very nice and certainly an improvement. Just trying to keep it real 'round here.:wave:

WDW1974 said:

My hero!!!

Click to expand...

Yeah, I know.:king:

tirian said:

Disney used to go "above and beyond" expectations because of company pride. From the big things like maintenance and attractions, to the small things like after-dinner chocolates, Disney earned its reputation for quality. They lost focus over the last fifteen years, but seem to be drifting back toward their old standards. Eddie Sotto just talked about this regarding WDI.

Click to expand...

I don't see it in O-Town at all. I want to ... but it's not there.

I still see cutting and a general trending downward (even as small things improve).

In the past 18 months I've visited every Disney resort that now exists (with multiple visits/trips to WDW, DL and HKDL) and done a Transatlantic DCL crossing. I've got a very good idea as to the product worldwide and what's being done right and wrong. I see lots of improvement in Anaheim and Hong Kong. Great products in Tokyo and on the seas that has steadily been so. Paris is largely treading water right now. WDW ... to use one of the worst phrases possible ... is what it is.:hammer: