Size of TLM and BatB

RSoxNo1

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Rob562 said:
Didn't they learn their lesson that high-capacity Omnimovers don't *need* FastPass? Ugh....

Haunted Mansion's FastPass was a complete failure. You'd think they'd learn their lesson. (Then again, Buzz still has FP...)

-Rob
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jakeman said:
Fortunately Disney doesn't pay attention to internet math.
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AEfx said:
I'm a huge fan of fastpass, but I have to agree that it's not needed here - done properly, an Omnimover shouldn't need it as it should be continuously loading.

It's also why (and I've been criticized for saying this before) I dearly hope there are no "stop and wait" pre-shows in TLM. I want a wonderfully detailed queue, but with an Omnimover it's just a bad design decision.

I wouldn't trade in the classic HM pre-show for the world now, but it is true that it mucks up the works and reduces ride capacity, even under the best of circumstances (both rooms running, for example).
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For the 47th time on here, the ride system is 100% irrelevant for fastpass usage. It has to do with the demand for the attraction vs. the attraction's capacity. There are rides that have higher capacities than The Haunted Mansion, and those use Fastpass. Nobody other than the strongest Fastpass opposers argue against the need for Fastpass for Kilimanjaro Safaris, yet it has a higher capacity than all of the Omnimovers.

Haunted Mansion could use Fastpass, Pirates of the Caribbean could use Fastpass, and it's a small world could use Fastpass. They don't need it every day, but on days where the waits exceed 20-30 minutes they could definitely use Fastpass effectively.

peter11435 said:
Actually this is not true. The Stretch rooms themeselves actually have a higher hourly ride capacity than the ride. The only thing that mucks up the HM's capacity is the ride system itself.
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Thanks Peter. I think this is part of the concern that the Park Ops crew is having with the queue changes coming up. Like the changes made to Space Mountain disrupting the normal flow of guests, anything that disrupts that makes operating the queue a little more difficult for the cast members.

At the same time, while it makes the cast members job more difficult, it makes the guest experience more enjoyable (in the form of a lower perceived wait time).

As for The Little Mermaid, I expect that Fastpass will be necessary for a few years, and then it will probably fall into the same category as Mansion, Pirates and Small World - it could use it, but on 300 days a year it's probably not necessary.

Having said all this, if you eliminate Fastpass at more attractions, the greater the demand is at other attractions. If you eliminate Fastpass at Buzz, then the Fastpasses at Space Mountain will run out earlier in the day. This is best exemplified in DHS with Toy Story Mania. It will be aided by a huge a capacity Fastpass attraction (with a similarly huge demand) opening in 2011.
 
AEfx

AEfx

Well-Known Member
mkepcotmgmak said:
I don't understand what you mean -
As long as there are guests in the queue on the opposite side of the stretch rooms, capacity hasn't been affected at all. If you came out of the stretch room and there were no Guests waiting to get on then yes, it would be a negative impact -
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But that's exactly what happens.

An Omnimover ride system is designed to be continuously loading.

Putting a barrier between the entrance and the continuously loading ride results in a bottleneck.

Sure, if both rooms are operating, and everything is working properly - it shouldn't happen. But it does.

Half the time I go to the HM, the inside queue by the conveyor belt is empty. This is even when there are guests queued up outside. This is because, quite often, only one of the stretching rooms are open creating an artificial wait-time.

I've also spent a lot of time at unload on this attraction, as I often travel with a disabled guest. Even on busy days, there are almost always gaps in the cars that could have been filled if it truly was just continuously loading.

Now, again, I am a huge fan of Fastpass, and a huge fan of the HM. I wouldn't change the HM the way it is for anything. HOWEVER, with this new Omnimover, I hope they don't muck up the works with a "stop and wait by a door" pre-show, and the ride really should not need a Fastpass to maximize ride efficiency. Either of those things defeats the entire purpose of the Omnimover system.
 
RSoxNo1

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
mkepcotmgmak said:
I don't understand what you mean -

As long as there are guests in the queue on the opposite side of the stretch rooms, capacity hasn't been affected at all. If you came out of the stretch room and there were no Guests waiting to get on then yes, it would be a negative impact -

Same with Rock N Roller Coaster - although I hate going through that pre-show - it doesn't negatively impact capacity - unless, again, you were to walk out of preshow and there were no Guests in the next queue.

Same concept with queues that get held up. People get aggravated if someone isn't walking fast enough or isn't paying attention and doesn't move ahead. It doesn't get you on the ride any faster - as long as there are still people waiting somewhere ahead of you (whether you can see them or not) - capacity and amount of time waiting is not affected in the least, no matter where you are standing in the queue.
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You're absolutely correct in your thought process, but AEfx's explanation explains some of the pitfalls of these stopping points/pre-shows. There are operational issues that are either deliberately created by management to keep guests in line or are unintentionally created by a cast member or procedure that isn't handling the line properly.

AEfx said:
But that's exactly what happens.

An Omnimover ride system is designed to be continuously loading.

Putting a barrier between the entrance and the continuously loading ride results in a bottleneck.

Sure, if both rooms are operating, and everything is working properly - it shouldn't happen. But it does.

Half the time I go to the HM, the inside queue by the conveyor belt is empty. This is even when there are guests queued up outside. This is because, quite often, only one of the stretching rooms are open creating an artificial wait-time.

I've also spent a lot of time at unload on this attraction, as I often travel with a disabled guest. Even on busy days, there are almost always gaps in the cars that could have been filled if it truly was just continuously loading.

Now, again, I am a huge fan of Fastpass, and a huge fan of the HM. I wouldn't change the HM the way it is for anything. HOWEVER, with this new Omnimover, I hope they don't muck up the works with a "stop and wait by a door" pre-show, and the ride really should not need a Fastpass to maximize ride efficiency. Either of those things defeats the entire purpose of the Omnimover system.
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I've said quite a bit about how the ride system doesn't matter in terms of Fastpass usage. However when you create these holding areas/pre-shows you need to keep in mind these pitfalls.

The numbers below aren't official, I made them up for the purposes of explaining throughput and the concept of a bottleneck:

  • If Haunted Mansion can load 2 people every 3 seconds that means it can load 40 people per minute or 2400 people per hour
  • However if the Stretch Rooms can only load 50 people every 5 minutes (or 100 people every 5 minutes across the two rooms) the capacity of the stretch rooms is only 1200 people per hour
  • If these numbers were actually official, then the layout of the entire attraction would be horribly inefficient. The attraction's capacity would only be 1200 guests per hour even though the ride itself can accommodate more than that.
  • You also need guests to be queuing up for the attraction in a steady enough manner to get the holding room concept to work. Not only do you need a line after the holding room to make sure you're not sending through empty vehicles, you also need to ensure that the supply of guests before the holding area is also substantial. The attraction needs a demand that is larger than the attraction's capacity.

This brings us back to the holding room concept. It probably doesn't make a lot of sense on rides with very large capacities. Really the only exceptions to this is The Haunted Mansion and Mission: Space.

For the Mansion the original stretch room was designed out of necessity in Disneyland, in reality it extends the length of the attraction while Disney can say that you're not in a line.

With Mission: SPACE, I think they anticipated a much higher demand than they actually get. There are so many holding areas for that attraction that if they new the popularity now, it would probably be re-designed.
 
peter11435

peter11435

Well-Known Member
AEfx said:
But that's exactly what happens..
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Im sorry, but that is simply not true. While it does happen it is not a common occurance in normal operation. One of the biggest problems at the HM is that the stretch rooms continuously dump more guests into the load area than the ride can put on prior to the next stretch being let out. This creates a huge bottle neck in the load area and often times (numerous times everyday) results in the line from the load area backing up into the stretch rooms.

AEfx said:
Half the time I go to the HM, the inside queue by the conveyor belt is empty. This is even when there are guests queued up outside. This is because, quite often, only one of the stretching rooms are open creating an artificial wait-time.


I've also spent a lot of time at unload on this attraction, as I often travel with a disabled guest. Even on busy days, there are almost always gaps in the cars that could have been filled if it truly was just continuously loading.
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Im not sure when you visit the mansion but on most days they run both stretch rooms all but 1-2 hours a day.
 
peter11435

peter11435

Well-Known Member
RSoxNo1 said:
  • If Haunted Mansion can load 2 people every 3 seconds that means it can load 40 people per minute or 2400 people per hour
  • However if the Stretch Rooms can only load 50 people every 5 minutes (or 100 people every 5 minutes across the two rooms) the capacity of the stretch rooms is only 1200 people per hour
  • If these numbers were actually official, then the layout of the entire attraction would be horribly inefficient. The attraction's capacity would only be 1200 guests per hour even though the ride itself can accommodate more than that.
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  • The problem here is that you are simply making up numbers. You are correct that the HM loads a buggy every 3 seconds. So if we assume 2 guests per buggy you are correct that the ride can handle 2400 per hour. The stretch rooms however are on alternating 4-minute cycles. Therefore a stretch room is loaded every 2 minutes. That is 30 stretches per hour. The stretch rooms are built to accommodate 90 guests and that is the number the maids and butlers are looking for prior to shutting the doors. Thus the stretch rooms have an hourly capacity of 2700. That is 300 guests more than the ride itself, and that is assuming the ride stays running the entire hour. Every time the ride has to be stopped (5-10 times per hour) or slowed (numerous) to load guests with disabilities it lowers the hourly capacity of the ride but the stretch rooms remain unaffected.
 
Skipper03

Skipper03

Member
Omegadiz said:
what is the relative size of there structures? TLM at one point looked gigantic, but now in the building stage it looks small. smaller than DCA's. So is it supposed to be around IaSW size? as for the restaurant, whats about the same size as it would be by the end result?
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We all know that DCA is smaller, which can make TLM building look much larger. While TLM building in the FLE is surrounded by dirt and keeps the scale looking smaller, but both buildings are the same size... it's all in the perspective!
 
B

BigThunderMatt

Well-Known Member
peter11435 said:
Every time the ride has to be stopped (5-10 times per hour) or slowed (numerous) to load guests with disabilities it lowers the hourly capacity of the ride but the stretch rooms remain unaffected.
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Which, sadly, I've noticed happens quite a bit more often in recent years than it has in the past.
 
RSoxNo1

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
peter11435 said:
The problem here is that you are simply making up numbers. You are correct that the HM loads a buggy every 3 seconds. So if we assume 2 guests per buggy you are correct that the ride can handle 2400 per hour. The stretch rooms however are on alternating 4-minute cycles. Therefore a stretch room is loaded every 2 minutes. That is 30 stretches per hour. The stretch rooms are built to accommodate 90 guests and that is the number the maids and butlers are looking for prior to shutting the doors. Thus the stretch rooms have an hourly capacity of 2700. That is 300 guests more than the ride itself, and that is assuming the ride stays running the entire hour. Every time the ride has to be stopped (5-10 times per hour) or slowed (numerous) to load guests with disabilities it lowers the hourly capacity of the ride but the stretch rooms remain unaffected.
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Yeah, I pointedly acknowledged that I made up numbers, but it was to explain how bottlenecks work in an exaggerated manner. I know full well (and the readers of this site should know) that the disparity between the capacity of the ride and the capacity of the stretch rooms are not 2:1 as they were in my example.

Having said that, are the #s you have listed above accurate? I'm not calling you out, I'm just curious.
 
AEfx

AEfx

Well-Known Member
peter11435 said:
Im sorry, but that is simply not true. While it does happen it is not a common occurance in normal operation. One of the biggest problems at the HM is that the stretch rooms continuously dump more guests into the load area than the ride can put on prior to the next stretch being let out. This creates a huge bottle neck in the load area and often times (numerous times everyday) results in the line from the load area backing up into the stretch rooms.
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Well, we can debate our personal experiences all day, but that doesn't change what we individually have experienced.

It would *never* happen if there wasn't a barrier between the entrance/line and the Omnimover, unless the Omnimover was shut down for some reason.

Again, the HM should stay where it is...the point is, I hope they do not do anything similar with TLM so as to maximize capacity.

bigthundermatt said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter11435
Every time the ride has to be stopped (5-10 times per hour) or slowed (numerous) to load guests with disabilities it lowers the hourly capacity of the ride but the stretch rooms remain unaffected.

Which, sadly, I've noticed happens quite a bit more often in recent years than it has in the past.
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Uh...going to try hard not to take that the wrong way, but you do realize that when the Omnimover slows it's for disabled people to have an extra few seconds to board the ride they would otherwise be unable to experience - right?
 
N

nor'easter

Well-Known Member
AEfx said:
Well, we can debate our personal experiences all day, but that doesn't change what we individually have experienced.

It would *never* happen if there wasn't a barrier between the entrance/line and the Omnimover, unless the Omnimover was shut down for some reason.

Again, the HM should stay where it is...the point is, I hope they do not do anything similar with TLM so as to maximize capacity.



Uh...going to try hard not to take that the wrong way, but you do realize that when the Omnimover slows it's for disabled people to have an extra few seconds to board the ride they would otherwise be unable to experience - right?
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Most of those people in the electric carts are not disabled (unless you call obesity a disability).
 

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