The Fastpass Debate

RSoxNo1 · Jan 22, 2010

Rather than continue to de-rail the Little Mermaid e-ticket thread, let's move all discussion on The Fastpass debate to this thread. I've gone through the thread and pulled out all the Fastpass related content I could find:

Post 449

RSoxNo1 said:
I know this was dismissed earlier, but I'm willing to bet that this ride will have a fastpass for at least the first few years.

Post 452

EPCOT Explorer said:
Ugh...It's Omni...Why!?

Post 460

RSoxNo1 said:
It has nothing to do with the type of ride system, it has to do with hourly capacity vs. demand. Omni movers have a lower capacity than Kilimanjaro Safaris, yet the Safaris has a fastpass.

I would think that at least when the initial demand starts off, it may be necessary for them to implement fastpass.

Post 522

CaptainMichael said:
I wonder if Mermaid will start off with FPs or not...that too will ruin the experience.

Post 523

_Scar said:
Why would FP ruin the experience?

Post 525

CaptainMichael said:
Because Omnimovers don't need it. FP only creates unnecessary lines for Omnimover attractions. See: Haunted Mansion

One could argue that all of Fantasyland would benefit from a landwide FP banishment.

Post 526

Figment632 said:
Thank you! FP does nothing but hurt omnimover attractions Buzz SRS would never have a line over 35-40 minutes with out FP.

Post 527

DisneyParksFan1 said:
I agree. Even though the lines are long, especially at WDW, FP makes them worse and it kind of tries to defy what the concept of a queue, well a Disney queue, is. A well themed, intricate, and an immersive waiting area full of back-story before you enter the actual attraction.

Post 528 (Quoting Captain Michael in 525)

RSoxNo1 said:
How do you not understand this? The ride system does not matter, it's total capacity per hour. If the demand for the attraction exceeds that capacity it creates a line.

The demand for Haunted Mansion is larger than the demand for The Seas with Nemo and Friends. For that reason I would argue that Haunted Mansion could utilized Fastpass while it would not be as necessary on The Seas with Nemo and Friends.

Rides like Kilimanjaro Safaris and Kali River Rapids have a larger capacity than any omnimovers, yet they utilize Fastpass because often times their demand necessitates it.

Post 529

SirGoofy said:
But there's a difference. Omnimovers are continuously loading. Their lines would never get longer than 30 minutes if there was no fastpass.

Omnimovers should not have fastpass. Period.

But they aren't continuously loading. Their lines stop and start, meaning that no matter what there's going to be back ups that omni rides wouldn't have.

Also, Safaris shouldn't have fastpass, just as Jungle Cruise shouldn't.

Post 530

RSoxNo1 said:
Wrong. First off, Haunted Mansion loads in groups into the Stretch Room, but we'll ignore that.

Omnimovers don't get long lines because they have a large capacity, not because they are continuously loading.

If an attraction dispatches 2 guests every 2 seconds (For the sake of this argument we'll call this attraction an omnimover), that attraction has a capacity of 1800 guests per hour. If 0 people are in line for that attraction at the beginning of the hour, and 2700 people line up for that attraction at consistent intervals (say 2 guests every 1.5 seconds), then that attraction will have a wait of 1/2 an hour at the end of that hour. 1800 people will have been on the ride, and 900 more will be waiting in line.

If another attraction dispatches 24 guests every 30 seconds (For the sake of this argument we'll call this attraction Kilimanjaro Safaris), that attraction has a capacity of 2880 guests per hour. If 0 people are in line for that attraction at the beginning of the hour, and 2700 people line up for that attraction at consistent intervals (say 2 guests every 1.5 seconds), then that attraction won't have a wait at the end of the hour. All 2700 people will have been on the ride, and conceivably an additional 180 guests could have gotten on the ride without more than a 30 second wait).

See above. Fastpass lengthens standby lines - there's no question there, but if used correctly it helps guests see more attractions per day. The reason why this is true, is because not everyone can (or is willing to) use it at maximum efficiency.

If you're arguing that Jungle Cruise, Safaris, and any Omnimover shouldn't have Fastpass, what should have Fastpass? If your argument is that it should be removed entirely than it's a different argument altogether.

Post 538 (Quoting DisneyParksFan1 in 527, and RSoxNo1 in 528)

Figment632 said:
It works fine except on Omnimovers.

How do you not get it! Lets take SSE which is constantly moving on a very busy day. If they have FP then they stop the standard line for lets say 2 minutes to let FP through. People don't stop getting on line so the line backs up for those 2 minutes. Lets now say that people abuse FP and show up late. The FP line is getting long so they stop the standard line fo 6 minutes this time.

It is a pattern everytime you stop the normaly constantly moving line for FP the wait will be longer.

Post 539

Pumbas Nakasak said:
Get a fastpass and stop moaning like a girl. FFS.

Post 541

_Scar said:
I also support the "get a fastpass and stop moaning" comment.

Post 542 (Quoting Figment632 in 538)

fyn said:
I think you're assuming that the guests using Fast Passes would (in a world without FPs) not just be in the normal line, and I think that's a wrong assumption. Rides move people per hour, period. If you took the people in the fast pass line, and moved them into the regular line (like it was before fastpasses) the overall wait time is the same.

All the system has done is given a group of guests, who would have been ahead of you anyway, the chance to go and do other things instead of waiting in line the entire time. Whether or not that's a good thing overall is debatable, but it certainly doesn't make overall wait times longer.

Post 543

Figment632 said:
The thing you are not getting is that the line is costantly moving it doesn't stop unless the number of guets is over whelming. On New Years Eve the line for SSE filled all of the queue on both sides and wrapped around almost to innoventions. The wait was posted at 1 hour, in reality it was 25 minutes.

And don't get me wrong I love FP just not on omnimovers.

Post 544

fyn said:
How does a load rate that is continuous vs. stop/start, when riders/hour is equivalent, affect the wait time?

Or, are you saying the omnimovers don't have wait times long enough to justify a Fast Pass system? If that's the case, what does it matter whether the ride has it or not?

If you're claiming it somehow increases the wait time on Omnimovers, try to use math in your explanation. It's easier to understand.

Post 545

Figment632 said:
Well since we don't have any data that would be a hard thing to do.

Logic dictates that when you stop something that is moving there is a delay. Logically if they stop the normal line to let FP people through the normal line will be longer. If it is not moving and more people are getting on line there is an increase in the wait.

It like the NJ turnpike when there is an accident and you can't move for 25 minutes, you will be 25 minutes behind schedule.

Post 546

fyn said:
So you don't like that the CM has to spend .5 seconds per fastpass group to turn and allow them onto the ride? Remember that the people in the fastpass line would just be in the normal line if there wasn't a fastpass, and it would still take them the same amount of time to walk onto the ride.

Post 547

RSoxNo1 said:
I've tried not to talk down to you, and I'll try to do that in this post as well. If this comes off as condescending, I apologize in advance.

In your Spaceship Earth example, let's assume that Spaceship Earth loads 4 people every 5.76 seconds for a total capacity per hour of 2500. The capacity of the attraction is determined by the speed in which it loads, and from a business operations standpoint, we will refer to this as the bottleneck of the operation. If the attraction was not an omnimover, but could load 20 people every 15 seconds, it would have a much larger capacity (4800) and would be ok to use Fastpass in your mind because it isn't an omnimover.

If there is a cast member that is collecting Fastpasses for the attraction, they will not be collecting those fastpasses right at the load area, but rather at a Fastpass merge point. The wait after this merge point will typically be long enough so that there is a continuous flow of guests coming from the merge point. This will create a buffer of say 20-30 guests between the merge point and the loading area. The cast member that is receiving the fastpasses can then move through guests at the same pace that the cast member in charge of loading is loading guests (4 guests for ever 5.76 seconds). If this results in the standby line waiting 2 minutes, it would mean that during those two minutes, that means the Fastpass Cast member let in 80 fastpass guests to 0 Standby guests (which is entirely possible). The same type of thing would happen in another attraction that was not an Omnimover had the same capacity.

Thank you

The posted wait time has no bearing on your argument whatsoever. If a ride's capacity is 2500, and there are 2500 people in line in front of you, you will wait an hour.

In that same situation if you get in the standby line, and there are 2000 people in the standby line, and 0 people in the fastpass line, but 500 people get in the fastpass line before you reach the merge point, than you will also wait an hour.

Once again the ride system is irrelevent.

To continue the argument further. The omnimover is actually one of the best type of ride system for using fastpass, provided the demand for the attraction necessitates it, because it facilitates a larger capacity of guests per hour and the dispatch interval is relatively small. The argument against the use of Fastpass makes sense when discussing shows. Continuous running shows like PhilharMagic or It's Tough to be a Bug shouldn't use fastpass in it's current form because the show interval (essentially the dispatch interval) can be something like 20 minutes as opposed to 5.76 seconds.

Fastpass lengthens the standby line - that's relatively straight forward. However, the proper utilization of fastpass (for rides) is contingent on capacity per hour. The reason why the distinction (for rides) is necessary is because rides typically have dispatch intervals of less than 1 minute. This means that the variability of the wait for two attractions that have the same hourly capacity but different dispatch intervals should be less than a minute given the same amount of people in line.

This means that if attraction A can dispatch 2 people every 3 seconds, it will have a capacity of 2400 people per hour.

If attract B can dispatch 40 people every 60 seconds, it will also have a capacity of 2400 people per hour.

If you are guest #2401 in line for Attraction A, your wait will be 1 hour, and 3 seconds. If you are guest #2401 in line for Attraction B, your wait will be 1 hour, and 1 minute.

That is the only difference.

Post 548

Figment632 said:
I don't know what you are talking about you have never talked down to me sorry if I gave you that impression. You are not like most people on this site, you can have a logical debate without insulting people :wave:

Post 549

Next Big Thing said:
omg, I am not even a part of this argument and you are driving me crazy acting like you are a know it all on the fast pass system. All you are doing is coming off annoying for repeatedly saying the same thing over and over and pretty stupid throwing around all these numbers that no one cares to read.

Post 550 (Quoting Figment632 in 548 and Next Big Thing in 549)

RSoxNo1 said:
Good, I'm glad we can continue this as a civil conversation.

Then again, maybe we can't continue this as a civil conversation.

OK, I don't know who are you, but as you said, you weren't part of this argument, nor did you contribute anything of value to the discussion. I agree that I'm repeating myself, except as I'm repeating myself I'm trying to clarify my point in this discussion.

As to whether or not I'm a know it all on the fast pass system - feel free to think what you want.

Post 551

_Scar said:
You're the one coming off annoying here.

Capacity and average rides per day all pertain to the "Fast Pass debate"...

fyn · Jan 22, 2010

I think the big takeaway that people tend to miss is that Fast Pass isn't about reducing "wait times". Mathematically, it doesn't significantly change an attraction's wait time because the wait time is simply a factor of attraction throughput (guests/hour), and guest demand (guests lining up/hour). What fast pass does do is change what "waiting" is for a subset of guests.

Now, whether or not the benefit to a subset of guests is worth the negative thoughts and feelings non-fastpass guests have when they see a group of FPers walk onto a ride is up for debate.

Krack2 · Jan 22, 2010

fyn said:
What fast pass does do is change what "waiting" is for a subset of guests.

Now, whether or not the benefit to a subset of guests is worth the negative thoughts and feelings non-fastpass guests have when they see a group of FPers walk onto a ride is up for debate.

Well stated. I think that's exactly the nature of the Fastpass debate.

RSoxNo1 · Jan 22, 2010

Fastpass definitely alters wait times. Attractions equipped with Fastpass will have longer Standby lines than if they weren't equipped with Fastpass.

However, on overall standpoint, the more efficient you are at utilizing the Fastpass system, the less time that will be spent waiting in line. If you use Fastpass efficiently your overall wait times in the park will be less than if Fastpass didn't exist and there were only standby lines.

Krack2 · Jan 22, 2010

RSoxNo1 said:
If you use Fastpass efficiently your overall wait times in the park will be less than if Fastpass didn't exist and there were only standby lines.

I disagree. Unless you go sit on a park bench, the time you spend waiting for your Fastpass to become useable will be spent in line somewhere else in the park. Might be another attraction, might be a food cart, might be a counter service restaurant, might be a store. But you have to go somewhere, and when you get there, you are going to wait in line. And that line is now longer than it would have been had you still been waiting in the one singular line (as opposed to the standby and fastpass lines) of the original attraction you are holding the fastpass for. All it does is change where you wait.

For anybody interested, there was quite a bit of discussion about it recently in this thread.

roadtripper · Jan 22, 2010

I keep seeing mention of the ill feelings others have when they see FPers jetting right on through the line:shrug:. Ok, so here's a novel idea...if you are the person standing in a long line why not ask: "Hey what's going on with that line?" If you didn't already know what the deal was with FP, you'll get a quick lesson. This is how we learned how to use the FP system. I've asked questions when I see something that looks interesting or helpful and sometimes it is! We've spent time at other theme parks and with three kids who can't all go on all of the rides, the FP (and child swap) has helped to make our trips ,well, magical! Abracadabra...front of the line!

RSoxNo1 · Jan 22, 2010

Krack2 said:
I disagree. Unless you go sit on a park bench, the time you spend waiting for your Fastpass to become useable will be spent in line somewhere else in the park. Might be another attraction, might be a food cart, might be a counter service restaurant, might be a store. But you have to go somewhere, and when you get there, you are going to wait in line. And that line is now longer than it would have been had you still been waiting in the one singular line (as opposed to the standby and fastpass lines) of the original attraction you are holding the fastpass for. All it does is change where you wait.

For anybody interested, there was quite a bit of discussion about it recently in this thread.

When you're waiting for your fastpass return time, you definitely do something else. If you sit on a bench and do nothing than you are not efficiently using fastpass. Getting the fastpass is similar to waiting in a line. And when you get into the Fastpass line, your wait is considerably shorter. That more than makes up for the lengthened standby line that you also waited in.

Over on Miceage a few weeks ago there was an interesting article on efficiency whereby the introduced a term (which of course I can't remember) that references the number of attractions a guest can see during a day. They set this number at 10 as a goal point for guest satisfaction. Fastpass helps reach that goal.

If you get one fastpass every 2 1/2 hours during the course of a 10 hour day in the parks you can experience 4 additional attractions without waiting in the standby line. Veterans to the fastpass system will recognize that this is a conservative estimate and on some days you can acquire more than 4 Fastpasses.

I'm not disputing that Fastpass lengthens standby lines. What I am saying is that if you are using Fastpass more efficiently than the average theme park guest, then you will experience more attractions than you would if Fastpass didn't exist.

Krack2 · Jan 22, 2010

RSoxNo1 said:
If you get one fastpass every 2 1/2 hours during the course of a 10 hour day in the parks you can experience 4 additional attractions without waiting in the standby line. Veterans to the fastpass system will recognize that this is a conservative estimate and on some days you can acquire more than 4 Fastpasses.

Yes, but now every other line you wait in for the rest of the day (the non-fastpass lines) is now longer. Why? Because all the people holding fastpasses are standing in them while waiting for their fastpass to become useable. Your line waits in the fastpass line are demonstrably shorter - but you're waiting longer in almost every other line and that basically evens out.

Everything else being equal, you will be able to visit the same amount of attractions and spend the same amount of time in line, in a Magic Kingdom that offers fastpass as you would in a Magic Kingdom with no fastpass system. The only difference is where you spend the time waiting in line.

fyn · Jan 22, 2010

RSoxNo1 said:
Fastpass definitely alters wait times. Attractions equipped with Fastpass will have longer Standby lines than if they weren't equipped with Fastpass.

However, on overall standpoint, the more efficient you are at utilizing the Fastpass system, the less time that will be spent waiting in line. If you use Fastpass efficiently your overall wait times in the park will be less than if Fastpass didn't exist and there were only standby lines.

My point is that it doesn't make sense to only look at wait times from a "standby line" only viewpoint, because that's ignoring data, specifically the "in line" time of the guests with fastpasses. If you aggregate wait times across all guests (both FPs and standby), wait times aren't impacted, except slightly in the corner case you mentioned where an attraction has a stop/go loading system.

If you choose to slice the data to focus on the wait times of a single specific guest throughout the day, then yeah, fast passes can reduce the overall wait time for that guest, at the cost of increasing wait times for other (non fastpass) guests.

sparky03 · Jan 22, 2010

All I know is that I hate waiting in line for attractions. I do not pay $50 a day for that. If I get a Fastpass for a high demand attraction, I can go have lunch, browse the parks, or go ride 2 or 3 low-demand attractions. Then I go experience my high-demand attraction without wasting precious time standing in line for it. Fastpass is ingenious and I will continue to use it on my visits to WDW.

Krack2 · Jan 22, 2010

sparky03 said:
All I know is that I hate waiting in line for attractions. I do not pay $50 a day for that. If I get a Fastpass for a high demand attraction, I can go have lunch, browse the parks, or go ride 2 or 3 low-demand attractions. Then I go experience my high-demand attraction without wasting precious time standing in line for it. Fastpass is ingenious and I will continue to use it on my visits to WDW.

If you intended to "have lunch, browse the parks, or go ride those 2 or 3 low-demand attractions" at some point in time during the day, then you haven't saved any time waiting in lines. All you did was change at what point in time during the day you'd be having lunch (or browsing the park, or riding low demand attractions) and put yourself on Disney's timetable, not your own.

sparky03 · Jan 22, 2010

Krack2 said:
If you intended to "have lunch, browse the parks, or go ride those 2 or 3 low-demand attractions" at some point in time during the day, then you haven't saved any time waiting in lines. All you did was change at what point in time during the day you'd be having lunch (or browsing the park, or riding low demand attractions) and put yourself on Disney's timetable, not your own.

But those are things I'm going to do anyway. You're saying it's still somehow preferrable to do those things PLUS waste an additional 30 min or so standing in line for my high-demand attraction? Explain.

Krack2 · Jan 22, 2010

sparky03 said:
But those are things I'm going to do anyway. You're saying it's still somehow preferrable to do those things PLUS waste an additional 30 min or so standing in line for my high-demand attraction? Explain.

If you are going to do those things anyway, then you are exactly the person who is not seeing any benefit from fastpass (which puts you in the vast majority of park goers). And I will explain ...

For simplicity sake, imagine a Magic Kingdom park with 3 rides and a restaurant. Let's just say Space Mountain (average 1 hour wait+ride), Buzz Lightyear (25 minute wait+ride) and TTA (no wait - but ten minute ride time). This park has no fastpass.

You have 4 hours in the park and you want to experience everything and eat lunch.

Hour 1 - You ride Space Mountain
Hour 2 - You Ride Buzz Lightyear twice and TTA twice
Hour 3 - You eat lunch (one hour time total)
Hour 4 - You ride Space Mountain

You've ridden each ride twice plus ate lunch

--------

Now imagine the same Magic Kingdom Park with fastpass for Space Mountain only. You still have the same goals. Entering the park, you get a fast pass for Space Mountain for Hour 4. Because of the fastpass system, all non-fastpass lines have now increased. Why? Because all of those people with fastpass are still standing in one of the lines (or having lunch), but when they utilize the fastpass, they are forcing the Space Mountain standby riders to have a significantly increased wait line. The same is true of the Buzz riders. We can assume that the TTA line stays as a no-wait ride (because there just isn't enough demand). The Space Mountain standby line is now 1 hour 30 minutes (wait+ride). The Buzz ride is now 40 minutes (wait+ride). The Space Mountain fastpass line is now 15 minutes (wait+ride).

Hour 1 - You ride Space Mountain stand by and TTA
Hour 2 - You ride Buzz Lightyear and TTA
Hour 3 - You eat lunch
Hour 4 - You ride Space Mountain (utilizing your fastpass) and you ride Buzz Lightyear

You've ridden each ride twice plus ate lunch

-----

There you go. Two days in the park - one with a fastpass system, one without - and you spent the same amount of time in line and visited the exact same attractions. All you did was shift when you rode them and where you spent time waiting in line. Are the wait times exact? No, of course not, but you get the point (you can never get an exact time because of a variety of other factors out of our control - crowd size, closed rides, the whim's of the general public, etc). When someone is waiting for their fastpass to become available, they must go somewhere. And that somewhere is going to be another line. Which means that line is now going to be longer than it would have been without fastpass. The time you spend eating, riding zero wait rides and browsing is going to remain very close to a constant with and without fastpass, so it is illogical to factor it into determining whether you are saving time with the fastpass system.

It just seems like it's saving you time. Which is understandable; that's what it's designed to do.

Now imagine the Magic Kingdom park as a whole, with 50 attractions and several restaurants (and shops and parades and food carts). The exact same principles of time management, lines, waiting, etc apply. You are spending no less time waiting in lines with fastpass as you would if the system did not exist.

All of that said, there is one special instance in which fastpass would be advantageous. Here it is: If you are a person who only rides (a) attractions with fastpass and you only ride them utilizing a fastpass (no standby line riding) and/or (b) attractions with zero wait times, then you are benefiting greatly from the system. That, of course, is a very small subset of WDW resort guests - this is a person that rides 4 or 5 "good rides" a day maximum and then no-wait rides to round out their day; no rides what-so-ever that has a line but no fastpass.

GenerationX · Jan 22, 2010

Interesting discussion. Based on the arguments raised above, FP will result in collectively more activities experienced by guests, since FP allows guests more opportunities to experience zero-wait activities - food, entertainment, attractions. The total time spent in line decreases with FP then, too.

RSoxNo1 · Jan 23, 2010

Krack2 said:
Yes, but now every other line you wait in for the rest of the day (the non-fastpass lines) is now longer. Why? Because all the people holding fastpasses are standing in them while waiting for their fastpass to become useable. Your line waits in the fastpass line are demonstrably shorter - but you're waiting longer in almost every other line and that basically evens out.

Everything else being equal, you will be able to visit the same amount of attractions and spend the same amount of time in line, in a Magic Kingdom that offers fastpass as you would in a Magic Kingdom with no fastpass system. The only difference is where you spend the time waiting in line.

This is assuming that everyone uses fastpass to it's full potential, which is not the case.

fyn said:
If you choose to slice the data to focus on the wait times of a single specific guest throughout the day, then yeah, fast passes can reduce the overall wait time for that guest, at the cost of increasing wait times for other (non fastpass) guests.

Yes, Fastpass lengthens the time spent in line for people that don't use it correctly/effectively at all. However, if you know how to use it, and can do so at a rate better than the average park guest, you will experience more attractions that you otherwise would if Fastpass didn't exist.

Changing gears a bit, the more Fastpass attractions that are in the park, the closer the return times will be for every Fastpass attraction. Although this isn't as big a deal at the Magic Kingdom (because it currently has 7 attractions that use fastpass daily, as well as Mickey's PhilharMagic and Stitch's Great Escape which use it rarely), if you were to add Fastpass to Haunted Mansion, it's a small world, and Pirates of the Caribbean the return times for Magic Kingdom fastpasses would be closer to the distribution time.

Where this is more important is the other parks. Epcot has 3-4 attractions that typically need Fastpass (Soarin', Test Track, Mission: Space and Maelstrom). Living with the Land occasionally runs Fastpass, and Honey, I Shrunk the Audience rarely runs it. As of right now, there are no attractions in Epcot that need Fastpass. I classify an attraction as needing Fastpass if it regularly has waits in excess of 30 minutes. The only additional thing that could consistently use Fastpass on a daily basis at Epcot would be the Character Spot, and logistically, that may be impossible.

At Hollywood Studios, the run Fastpass daily on Rock 'n' Roller Coaster, Tower of Terror and Toy Story Mania. They will also run it on Star Tours and The Voyage of the Little Mermaid on busier days, and for the two Stunt Shows on the busiest days. The used to run it on Muppetvision, but it proved to be unnecessary. I do think that Fastpass could be utilized on The Great Movie Ride, and I think moreso than any other attraction in the parks, they should add it to this. They need to add more Fastpasses into the DHS system because Toy Story Mania Fastpasses are distributed too quickly. By adding Fastpass to The Great Movie Ride combined with Star Tours presumably shifting to daily distribution when Star Tours 2.0 opens Toy Story will have more reasonable fastpass distribution

Finally, over at the Animal Kingdom, they run Fastpass daily for Expedition Everest, Kilimanjaro Safaris and Dinosaur. They run it on some days for Kali River Rapids, and rarely for Primeval Whirl and pretty much never for It's Tough to be a Bug. This park also doesn't have additional rides that could implement Fastpass, but the utilization could be changed on existing attractions. It may not be necessary to run Fastpass on Dinosaur on a daily basis, while I do think they should run it on Primeval Whirl more often than they do.

I'll argue these points further, but I've already written a book here as it is.

Krack2 · Jan 23, 2010

GenerationX said:
Interesting discussion. Based on the arguments raised above, FP will result in collectively more activities experienced by guests, since FP allows guests more opportunities to experience zero-wait activities - food, entertainment, attractions. The total time spent in line decreases with FP then, too.

But only if you were never going to experience those zero-wait activities in the first place. For example, if you were always going to eat lunch, then that doesn't count - all you've done is possibly alter the time period during the day when you ate lunch to accommodate the fastpass schedule. The same applies to getting ice cream, sitting on a bench, watching a parade, shopping, etc. I'd argue that the amount of time the typical WDW guest would spend doing these activities is going to remain fairly constant, regardless of the fastpass system.

In other words, you're always gonna spend an hour eating lunch, 20 minute on ice cream, 20 minutes on the bench people watching - the typical person doesn't do these more because they have time to kill with fastpass. They go get in line for other attractions (and wait longer because of the fastpass system).

Krack2 · Jan 23, 2010

RSoxNo1 said:
However, if you know how to use it, and can do so at a rate better than the average park guest, you will experience more attractions that you otherwise would if Fastpass didn't exist.

I can't disagree with this more. As I said in the other thread, it's a physics issue. When someone receives a fastpass, they must go somewhere. They can get in the standby line, where the wait is now much longer than it would be without a fastpass system - because it has to accommodate a certain amount of fastpass riders per hour. Or they can get in line somewhere else - and this other line is now longer than it would be without a fastpass system - because a certain number of other people holding fastpasses for ride X (and rides Y, Z and W) are standing in front of you and without the fastpass system, they'd be in that ride X's line.

The time you save not waiting in the full line for the fastpass attraction will be spent waiting in longer lines for everything else in the park (unless you fall into the very small subset of people who only ride fastpass and zero-wait attractions).

JWG · Jan 23, 2010

The fast pass system works great if you have a small child or children who aren't able to ride major attractions and if you have 2+ people in your party. Why? Because you combine baby swap with the fast pass system.

A party of 4 plus a child works well. Two people get a fast pass for whatever attraction. The remaining two immediately get a fast pass for another attraction (or the same one if you want to ride twice). When you turn in your fast passes you request baby swap (good for up to 3 adults).

You've now doubled the number of fast passes available to you.

the-reason14 · Jan 23, 2010

sparky03 said:
All I know is that I hate waiting in line for attractions. I do not pay $50 a day for that. If I get a Fastpass for a high demand attraction, I can go have lunch, browse the parks, or go ride 2 or 3 low-demand attractions. Then I go experience my high-demand attraction without wasting precious time standing in line for it. Fastpass is ingenious and I will continue to use it on my visits to WDW.

I agree with you. I dont care if in actuality I am waiting 3 plus hours to get on said attraction. If you know what you're doing, you can see and do more with fastpass than you could without it-fact. I have a brilliant system to where I can hold fastpasses for Space mt., Soarin, Dinosaur, Toy Story Mania, and Tower of Terror, all on one day. I had multiple fastpasses for Space mt. and Toy Story, and its all because I knew what I was doing and happened just last friday. Without fastpass, I wouldnt have been able to hit all of the major attractions at all the parks on one day. IMO, if you are against fastpass, you dont know how to use it. So just dont and let people who do know, use it.

GenerationX · Jan 23, 2010

Krack2 said:
But only if you were never going to experience those zero-wait activities in the first place. For example, if you were always going to eat lunch, then that doesn't count - all you've done is possibly alter the time period during the day when you ate lunch to accommodate the fastpass schedule. The same applies to getting ice cream, sitting on a bench, watching a parade, shopping, etc. I'd argue that the amount of time the typical WDW guest would spend doing these activities is going to remain fairly constant, regardless of the fastpass system.

In other words, you're always gonna spend an hour eating lunch, 20 minute on ice cream, 20 minutes on the bench people watching - the typical person doesn't do these more because they have time to kill with fastpass. They go get in line for other attractions (and wait longer because of the fastpass system).

Maybe. However, there is a percentage of FP holders who will experience more zero-wait activities. I may catch the Jammitors, for example, if I happen to be walking past when they start. If I'm in nothing but stand by lines all day, maybe I miss them. Since I have the opportunity to experience more zero-wait activities and those activities are fairly available throughout WDW, it is logical to assume I will stop and see them more often with FP than without.

In essence, I'm challenging your statement that people will spend the same amount of time experiencing zero-wait activities regardless of FP. They may eat the same number of meals, but parades, snacks, outdoor shows, and random entertainment - all with little to no wait - will increase with FP.

The Fastpass Debate

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Active Member

Member

Active Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member