Slash and Burn ...

mcjaco said:

OK, let's not exagerate. It's not that small.

Everything I've heard from the friends I have that have been there, is that it is small (Disneyland small), and that there really isn't enough to do. It is, however, one of the best kept and most beautiful parks.

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No. It isn't THAT small!

And to be fair, if you were in DL at say Buzz and it wasn't crowded, you could get over to Jungle Cruise very quickly ... a minute maybe?

tirian said:

^^ That's partly true, but only for certain attractions. Here are the reasons...

1. The holiday overlays allow short-term refurbs that have to happen anyway. The attractions would be closed in October and January, which is when most refurbs already occur.

2. Some overlays barely require any time at all, such as the CBJ Christmas show.

3. I agree that HMH is overkill, especially since the movie's demographic isn't nearly as widespread as the classic HM's. I suspect that many of the international Guests visiting WDW have never seen NBC and wouldn't know what was going on. IMO, Disney could still decorate the HM a little, with ragged wreaths, tattered garlands, and even a ghostly Christmas tree in the ballroom. This could occur overnight.

4. There is NO reason not to run the Christmas parade earlier than Christmas week, except to sell tickets to MVMCP.

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The MK doesn't do holiday overlays, even though they in fact were the first to do so with CBJ in 1984, because they don't want to spend the money to. It's as simple as that.

Demos have nothing to do with it. That's just an excuse that's convenient and trotted out so that simple minded fans won't .

You won't convince me that guests won't enjoy a Holiday Small World or a Holiday Mansion ... yet plenty of tourists visit DL, TDL and DLP during the holidays (DLP only does SW not one on Phantom Manor) and those parks don't have people whining about overlays.

By the same thinking why have a Christmas parade or Holiday Wishes at MK? What about the tourists who dream of seeing the regular daytime parade and who feel Wishes is the best pyro show in the world and their trip will be ruined yada, yada yada ...

The bottom line is money dictates what gets done. And even then it isn't that simple. Burbank approved and allocated funds for a Holiday Mansion at WDW years ago ... but Phil Holmes didn't want it. The funds wound up being used for plasma screens in the tunnels and office furniture (seriously!) ... the plans were simply used in Tokyo, whose Mansion is 98% the same as ours.

tirian said:

****

I've stayed out of this discussion, but I'll finally pipe in (not that anybody cares).

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I do. Glad to hear you warming up them pipes.

tirian said:

Slash and Burn is in effect right now because of the economy. Most of the park leadership is ridiculously short-sighted and they're not planning for long-term returns. But the whole place isn't falling apart, and I don't think WDW1974 is saying it is.

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No. He's saying parts are falling apart. Stay away from the railings at the Adventureland Veranda unless you want to plummet to death or a broken neck. Seriously.

Rest assured, repairing those aren't on Phil's 'Got To Do' List.

tirian said:

Refurbishments are going forward as planned, the Space Mt. refurb is longer than expected, and new attractions will eventually dwindle down to the parks. WDW existed perfectly fine from 1971–1982 with only about two significant additions to the MK.

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Agreed. But that was when quality meant everything. And many seasonal things were toyed with.

tirian said:

The problem is that everything being done has already been planned, and park execs are so short-sighted that they aren't properly planning for the FUTURE. That's what has WDW1974 and a whole lot of other people very concerned. Most of the cuts are affecting the MK, too, which needs refurbishment and refreshed attractions more than any other park.

I don't think anybody expects Disney to dump money into the park during our recession. We just want them to be ready for the economic rebound.

Food for thought: if Disney would have invested into the MK properly for the last twenty years (let's say one more E-ticket, two D's, and possibly a C or B), none of this would matter right now because the park would be able to sustain refurbishments and economic-minded cuts without affecting Guests too much. In other words, it would be more like DL.

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Bingo!

That's exactly it.

Disney's exec 'leadership' team simply has been milking the MK's udders until they bleed. Reinvestment has been non-existent or its been banal, cheap, lowest common denomenator crap like Stitch's Great Belchoff, Aladdin's Trafiic Clogger, Tiki Room Under Tom Fitzgerald's Leadership and MILF (which apparently has some other naughty meaning that is much more entertaining than this crapper of a toon show) ... and let's not forget swapping out a sub lagoon for a McDonald's playground (only crappier).

MK is so desperate for something new and fresh ... and substantial ... redos to Mansion, PoC and Small World are well and good (great in the first case) but they're not nearly enough.

Buried20KLeague said:

No, no. It is. Honestly. The autopia is right off the hub to the right, just past a restaurant and the entrance to Buzz Lightyear (with the ride buidling behind, similar to the MK. The autopia is right there and that's it. Literally right on the left side of the hub is their adventureland, with the Jungle Cruise to the right. That's it. I've been to Disneyland many times. This is no Disneyland.

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Well, I agree with your statements about the layout, but I think you'd have to be an Olympian with an empty park to cover the distance in the time you stated.

The park is small. No denying that. Although with all the expansion pads available I'd caution that this park could easily grow to DL size (maybe even larger) in the future.

And no, this is no Disneyland. I called it HLDL Lite before visiting. After, even though I really liked it, I called it McDisneyland.

It's got the feeling of DL, just missing much of the substance.

Buried20KLeague said:

The park is beautiful. That much is true. It was surreal to see mountains rising behind Sleeping Beauty Castle.

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Isn't it though? ... That park between the two lush tropical green mountains on the shores of the South China Sea has the best location of any MK in the world. Just incredible. That's what's so exasperating about its derth of attractions.

This could be a true world class resort IF Disney would step up to the plate and get it done.

Last I checked, it seemed like a very kewl 21st century take on Mansion was next up ... but this park needs a whole lot more and a whole lot quicker or it will continue to bleed money.

HK is one of the most diverse cosmopolitan cities in Asia with many westerners with money who have been to DL or TDL or WDW or DLP ... and they know HKDL is missing so much.

Buried20KLeague said:

But it's half a park. Main street, the hub, mini-tomorrowland, mini-adventureland, and a fantasyland that was BEAUTIFUL, but tiny. It got much needed help with the new IASW, but still.

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Well, I largely agree ... but Adventureland is actually quite large. It may in fact be the largest version in any MK park if memory serves me. It does take up the whole side of the park since there is no Frontierland (after it got the budget axe!) ... And the layout ie kewl with Tarzan's Treehouse on an island and the waterways being home to both the rafts and the Jungle Cruise. Also, there are many pathways in the land ... you can tell that much of it was 'borrowed' from DAK since they were built at the same time ... as an aside, there would have been more as there was supposed to be a mini-Dino themed section complete with roller coaster (indoor/outdoor) with onboard sound thru a primeval forest with the dinos built for DAK's CTX (now Dinosaur ride) as well as the Boneyard kids play area. I don't believe either of those are on the pages for future expansion. Aladdin's spinner from MK and DSP also was originally going in (one thing I'm glad got yanked because I see no way it would have meshed with the theming).

Buried20KLeague said:

I really and truely did time a walk from one side to the other, at a normal pace. It was so small I just had to do it. And it was darn near 30 seconds. I even documented it with pictures if I could figure out how to make that work well. I can't even multi-quote, let alone upload pics and post them!! :lol:

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Ok ... sure you did. We believe you!

Buried20KLeague said:

EDIT TO ADD: The proof in the pudding is that HKDL opened without a Pirates, IASW, Haunted Mansion, Thunder Mtn., or Splash Mtn... It's just half a park. I'd bet it's 20% smaller than DL. Definitely width wise.

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To again point out what was done by Eisner, Pressler and then Rasulo ... but Small World and Phantom Manor (they were pulling it directly from DLP) were supposed to be there on opening day. Pirates was never in the original plans (although it is in expansion plans) and neither Big Thunder or Splash were going in and likely never will.

I don't believe they are needed. So long as other attractions help fill in the park.

Note to self, why am I more excited about HKDL's prospects at this point than MK's?

WDW1974 said:

The MK doesn't do holiday overlays, even though they in fact were the first to do so with CBJ in 1984, because they don't want to spend the money to. It's as simple as that.

Demos have nothing to do with it. That's just an excuse that's convenient and trotted out so that simple minded fans won't .

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You're right about overlays in general. The fact that CBJ doesn't get its Christmas show anymore—heck, it doesn't even get its Vacation Hoedown—is ridiculous. The "Guests may not like it" excuse is absolute BS because Guests are coming to WDW during the holidays to see it decked out for Christmas.

I disagree on HMH to an extent, only because I know many people who equate NBC with Hot Topic. That's Disney's fault. I would personally love to see it come to WDW.

WDW1974 said:

The bottom line is money dictates what gets done. And even then it isn't that simple. Burbank approved and allocated funds for a Holiday Mansion at WDW years ago ... but Phil Holmes didn't want it. The funds wound up being used for plasma screens in the tunnels and office furniture (seriously!) ... the plans were simply used in Tokyo, whose Mansion is 98% the same as ours.

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You mean the TVs that didn't work for about six months after being installed?

WDW1974 said:

No. He's saying parts are falling apart. Stay away from the railings at the Adventureland Veranda unless you want to plummet to death or a broken neck. Seriously.

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Please remind me why that place is closed, while all the other dining locations are booked solid. While you're at it, remind me why the Diamond Horseshoe doesn't have shows anymore, even though DL, TDL, and DLP—all of which have lower attendance than Florida's—need the capacity. Heck, why isn't the gorgeous store behind the temporary walls of Aladdin's Bazaar still open? Why doesn't the gift shop in the Tomorrowland Arcade sell shirts and merch Guests can't buy at Target?

The cost-cutting doesn't even make sense.

Phil Holmes would rather trip over strollers and watch Guests stand in unbelievably long queues than provide top-quality things for them to do.

(And before anybody accuses me of joining a ranting tirade, I'd like to point out that I'm usually very optimistic on these boards. But several recent circumstances have brought the MK's dire condition to my attention, and I'm disgusted with the park's management.)

WDW1974 said:

Last I checked, it seemed like a very kewl 21st century take on Mansion was next up

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Can you say, "About time"?

Is there any more light you might be able to shed on this project? I'd love to hear how they plan to 21st-Century-ify it. Unless that's just from a technological stand point -- with LED's today I think they could really set some GORGEOUS lighting schemes into the Mansion -- but still, it'll be interesting to see how they place it in the park. I wouldn't be surprised if they blew the whole "Only attraction in a different land in each park" record that it holds to just get it set in Fantasyland or something, but it'd be cool if they could rationalize it in another way. Personally, I still think that it could be brought back into Main Street as the original attraction was planned . . .

yensidtlaw1969 said:

Can you say, "About time"?

Is there any more light you might be able to shed on this project? I'd love to hear how they plan to 21st-Century-ify it. Unless that's just from a technological stand point -- with LED's today I think they could really set some GORGEOUS lighting schemes into the Mansion -- but still, it'll be interesting to see how they place it in the park. I wouldn't be surprised if they blew the whole "Only attraction in a different land in each park" record that it holds to just get it set in Fantasyland or something, but it'd be cool if they could rationalize it in another way. Personally, I still think that it could be brought back into Main Street as the original attraction was planned . . .

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Thought based on no facts whatsoever, just an idea:

I wonder if this is where the Adventurer's Club stuff is going...

EDIT: Misspell at 2 am

tirian said:

Thought based on no facts whatsoever, just an idea:

I wonder if this is where the Adventure Club stuff is going...

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Ya know, I was wondering that too. It wouldn't be the first time that the idea of an Adventureland based Mansion was tossed out there, but don't know where it's at now. That would be an interesting mash-up though, the Adventurer's Club with the Haunted Mansion. I don't know if I'd be into it, but I guess I'd have to wait and see what they do with it before passing any real judgment.

I don't know, a lot of those claims for budget cuts I find extremely hard to believe. I don't think Disney would go to huge extremes like that, even in light of the economy. But of course I'm an optimist, so I always think of the best. Keep your heads up people!

tirian said:

You're right about overlays in general. The fact that CBJ doesn't get its Christmas show anymore—heck, it doesn't even get its Vacation Hoedown—is ridiculous. The "Guests may not like it" excuse is absolute BS because Guests are coming to WDW during the holidays to see it decked out for Christmas.

I disagree on HMH to an extent, only because I know many people who equate NBC with Hot Topic. That's Disney's fault. I would personally love to see it come to WDW.



You mean the TVs that didn't work for about six months after being installed?





Please remind me why that place is closed, while all the other dining locations are booked solid. While you're at it, remind me why the Diamond Horseshoe doesn't have shows anymore, even though DL, TDL, and DLP—all of which have lower attendance than Florida's—need the capacity. Heck, why isn't the gorgeous store behind the temporary walls of Aladdin's Bazaar still open? Why doesn't the gift shop in the Tomorrowland Arcade sell shirts and merch Guests can't buy at Target?

The cost-cutting doesn't even make sense.

Phil Holmes would rather trip over strollers and watch Guests stand in unbelievably long queues than provide top-quality things for them to do.

(And before anybody accuses me of joining a ranting tirade, I'd like to point out that I'm usually very optimistic on these boards. But several recent circumstances have brought the MK's dire condition to my attention, and I'm disgusted with the park's management.)

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Now is this all Phil's fault? Or is it Corporate pulling money off the top of WDW profits and sending it to other places like ABC, DCA or HKDL?

Isn't it rediculous that the Adventurland Veranda is not open. Also El Pirata in only open occasionally along with tomorrowland Terrace Noodle Station. MK is the absolute worst park for food. During busy times you need fast pass to get counter service and if you want table service you might as well forget it. Waiting 30 + minutes in line to get a cheesburger:hammer:.

PhilharMagician said:

Now is this all Phil's fault? Or is it Corporate pulling money off the top of WDW profits and sending it to other places like ABC, DCA or HKDL?

Isn't it rediculous that the Adventurland Veranda is not open. Also El Pirata in only open occasionally along with tomorrowland Terrace Noodle Station. MK is the absolute worst park for food. During busy times you need fast pass to get counter service and if you want table service you might as well forget it. Waiting 30 + minutes in line to get a cheesburger:hammer:.

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Probably not; but as the park's president, he's responsible, and he's made enough poor decisions within the last ten years to put much of the blame squarely on him.

For what it's worth, he's actually a fairly nice guy. Too bad he's so content with a certain level of mediocrity. (I say "a certain level" because the MK has been cleaned up quite a bit since the Sentinel posted the "This Old Park" article a few years ago.)

yensidtlaw1969 said:

Can you say, "About time"?

Is there any more light you might be able to shed on this project? I'd love to hear how they plan to 21st-Century-ify it. Unless that's just from a technological stand point -- with LED's today I think they could really set some GORGEOUS lighting schemes into the Mansion -- but still, it'll be interesting to see how they place it in the park. I wouldn't be surprised if they blew the whole "Only attraction in a different land in each park" record that it holds to just get it set in Fantasyland or something, but it'd be cool if they could rationalize it in another way. Personally, I still think that it could be brought back into Main Street as the original attraction was planned . . .

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Well, the HM is already in Fantasyland at TDL. And I would think that's where it would have to go at HKDL if it was any kind of HM like we know today. If they re-imagined it, maybe they'd make it fit in Adventureland.

tirian said:

Probably not; but as the park's president, he's responsible, and he's made enough poor decisions within the last ten years to put much of the blame squarely on him.

For what it's worth, he's actually a fairly nice guy. Too bad he's so content with a certain level of mediocrity. (I say "a certain level" because the MK has been cleaned up quite a bit since the Sentinel posted the "This Old Park" article a few years ago.)

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I am not defending him in the least, but is he even given the required monies to properly operate , update and expand WDW? I just cannot see Phil saying that he does not want the profits from WDW being reinvested into the resort! I can see the board talking and deciding that the growth in WDW has continued with all the cuts they have done and that is how WDC will continue until a change in attendance. These cuts like Figaro Fries, Chicken Fingers, Prime Rib, Toll House Ice cream cookie sandwiches, no F & W topiaries at Epcot entrance this year, no CBJ christmas or vacation hoedown, a drive to make restaurant menus common across property will continue.

A ton of money has been thrown all over, and I have been a little unfair in leaving DLP out of the money s__________g catagory. DLP has done a lot better over the past couple of years, but has been a load for a long time. How about throwing big money at Space in WDW and do a DL type refurb on the ride? I do not know what is planned for this except what I read, but I have little faith that it will get a well deserved refurb needed for a 30+ Y/O ride. I hope Space is done right to renew my faith.

PhilharMagician said:

I am not defending him in the least, but is he even given the required monies to properly operate , update and expand WDW? I just cannot see Phil saying that he does not want the profits from WDW being reinvested into the resort! I can see the board talking and deciding that the growth in WDW has continued with all the cuts they have done and that is how WDC will continue until a change in attendance. These cuts like Figaro Fries, Chicken Fingers, Prime Rib, Toll House Ice cream cookie sandwiches, no F & W topiaries at Epcot entrance this year, no CBJ christmas or vacation hoedown, a drive to make restaurant menus common across property will continue.

A ton of money has been thrown all over, and I have been a little unfair in leaving DLP out of the money s__________g catagory. DLP has done a lot better over the past couple of years, but has been a load for a long time. How about throwing big money at Space in WDW and do a DL type refurb on the ride? I do not know what is planned for this except what I read, but I have little faith that it will get a well deserved refurb needed for a 30+ Y/O ride. I hope Space is done right to renew my faith.

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I understand what you're saying, and agree that there's no way it's all due to one man. However, many of the MK's problems, including the half-hearted POTC refurb and inadequate number of attractions, are mostly (but not necessarily completely) Phil's fault.

I think the Space refurb will be decent—not awesome, but better than what it was almost reduced to.

With all the negativity in this thread, it's worth saying that there is still a lot to love about WDW; but if the leadership doesn't understand that "Disney" is about more than just characters and pixie dust, the broad variety that makes WDW appealing to all demographics will continue to erode away.

PhilharMagician said:

I am not defending him in the least, but is he even given the required monies to properly operate , update and expand WDW? I just cannot see Phil saying that he does not want the profits from WDW being reinvested into the resort! I can see the board talking and deciding that the growth in WDW has continued with all the cuts they have done and that is how WDC will continue until a change in attendance.

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Sorry to requote you, but this is extremely important:

The cuts were made BEFORE the estimated 2009 attendance drops. Everything you list in the paragraph after this was cut during some of WDW's most prosperous years.

WDW1974 said:

MK is so desperate for something new and fresh ... and substantial ... redos to Mansion, PoC and Small World are well and good (great in the first case) but they're not nearly enough.

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I think a lot of people can agree with you on that. No matter how many refurbishments MK management decides to go through, MK is still going to be stale. A refurbished IASM just isn't marketable. They need a new, big, quality attraction badly.

tirian said:

I understand what you're saying, and agree that there's no way it's all due to one man. However, many of the MK's problems, including the half-hearted POTC refurb and inadequate number of attractions, are mostly (but not necessarily completely) Phil's fault.

I think the Space refurb will be decent—not awesome, but better than what it was almost reduced to.

With all the negativity in this thread, it's worth saying that there is still a lot to love about WDW; but if the leadership doesn't understand that "Disney" is about more than just characters and pixie dust, the broad variety that makes WDW appealing to all demographics will continue to erode away.

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^^ I couldn't have said it better myself.

WDW1974 said:

If Shanghai DL becomes a reality it is going to be a very kewl and very different MK style park. And it will be worthy of a full day or two to see it all.

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Well, let's hope so. Although, I'd much prefer to have Disney concentrate on fixing up the older parks.

BTW, I think the haunted mansion really could work in Adventureland at HKDL. It could be modeled after a spanish or English plantation home (maybe like the govenor's mansion in the first POTC movie) but its all covered with vines, the inside is overrun with plants, cielings are leaky with some rooms flooded, etc. It would be very unique.

WDW1974 said:

And as I've said before, WDW has VERY few regulars who also were in the 70s and 80s.

Someone may have gone once in 1980 as a six-year-old, returned in 1988 with their high school band and became a 'regular' when they honeymooned there in 1999. ... Or they just didn't start visiting, even as an adult, until say 2002.

The people who were there often in 1978, 1988, 1998 and 2008 ... well, there's one right here ... any others? ... they know better. They have perspective on where WDW was and where it's going that newbies don't. It's that simple.

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My first trip (of what became almost annual trips) was after I was married in 1979, and I have to say I agree with everything you have written thus far, including the wal-marting and other stances.

Enigma said:

Perhaps it is time for Bob Iger, Jay Rasolu, and Tom Staggs to be shown the door. They are unfit creatively to lead this company.

Iger is this generations Ron Miller.

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Ummmm...how exactly do you make this comparison? Ron Miller was the head of the Disney company for barely a year. By that point, the company was already well into it's rapid decline. However, in the short time that Ron Miller was running the show, things were already starting to improve. Touchstone Pictures, for example, was begun under his watch. Had he been allowed more time in the job, it's possible the company would have made a comeback under his watch. It's difficult to tell. But he was definitely a scapgoat for the mess made by Card Walker and Donn Tatum.

So by making the comparison, are you saying that Bob Iger is a scapegoat?

agent86 said:

Ummmm...how exactly do you make this comparison? Ron Miller was the head of the Disney company for barely a year. By that point, the company was already well into it's rapid decline. However, in the short time that Ron Miller was running the show, things were already starting to improve. Touchstone Pictures, for example, was begun under his watch. Had he been allowed more time in the job, it's possible the company would have made a comeback under his watch. It's difficult to tell. But he was definitely a scapgoat for the mess made by Card Walker and Donn Tatum.

So by making the comparison, are you saying that Bob Iger is a scapegoat?

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Bob Iger would be the perfect #2 person if a strong visionary were #1. No, I do not recommend Lasseter.