I can definitively state the Fast Pass system does not increase capacity, and therefore does not increase the amount of rides that can be ridden in a day in the aggregate (all other variables being equal). Fast Pass cannot and does not increase ridership.
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FastPass is the dumbest thing Disney ever did.
- Thread starter AREM
- Start date
I can definitively state the Fast Pass system does not increase capacity, and therefore does not increase the amount of rides that can be ridden in a day in the aggregate (all other variables being equal). Fast Pass cannot and does not increase ridership.
Monty
Brilliant...and Canadian
- In the Parks
- No
You didn't read what I said, did you? :shrug:
David S.
Member
I was referring to days with identical hours. The bottom line is, I can ride Front Seat/Back Seat on Space Mountain Omega and Front Seat/Back Seat on Space Mountain Alpha WITHOUT having to do this at rope drop in around 75 minutes of total time for the 4 laps, at any time of the day after the 4th FP time comes up. Do this on a crowded day before FP, and it may take that long per ride! I'm not going to rehash all of my other posts in this thread, but I'll gladly sacrifice 10 or 15 minutes in the Orbitor and Speedway queue for this type of time advantage. There just aren't enough of the non-FP long queues that I have to wait in, that could be longer as a result of FP, to cancel out the time gained on the FP attractions as a result of FP!
Here's an example that maybe you will accept!:
When I first moved to FL after the storm, I did my first two full days of the MK WITHOUT using FP. I wanted to see how much I could get done without it, and at first I felt a little guilty about the idea walking by the people without one. (I don't now, because it's free for them, too!)
The closing time was 8 PM, I was there for rope drop each day, and stayed until closing. It didn't take long to figure out there was no way I could get multiple rides on Space and Thunder, ride Splash, and do ALL of Fantasyland (my fave section) before the park started to fill up.
So on my third day at MK (same hours as the others), I asked someone "If I come past the second return time, will I still be allowed to ride". I was given a friendly smile and an emphatic "YES they are good all day after the first time"!
This was my first day using the system and I got on SUBSTANTIALLY more attractions than I did the first two days, finished every attraction in the park, and got multiples on Space and BTMRR!
With FP, I don't have to worry about crisscrossing the park hitting all my faves before the queues fill up! I can relax and tour land by land!
I haven't looked back since! I know for a FACT that FP gets me on more attractions per day than I would get on if I didn't use it, or if it didn't exist, and I really hope this doesn't go back and forth again!
Sure I did. That's your point. It's the point you were trying to make to me earlier. I mean this in the least antagonistic way possible, but ... so what? It's not that I didn't understand (or read) what you were trying to say, it's that I don't think it's that insightful a point. Can I definitively prove Fast Pass holders are getting in attraction lines instead of increasing the amount of time they'd spending browsing shops and eating? No. I wrote an entire post about it earlier:
Is it your opinion that people eat more as a direct result of holding a Fast Pass? It is my opinion (unprovable) that they do not.
Of course you're going to be able to visit more attractions on a day using Fast Passes than if you didn't. The way the system is implemented today, anybody who doesn't use Fast Passes is automatically getting screwed. If all you did was ride standby lines, you're now standing behind all the original standby people, plus all the people holding a Fast Pass for a ride - this applies to every attraction (with a line) in the park, for the entire day.
What your anecdote does not explain, however, is how (or if) you are able to visit more attractions than if the Fast Pass system did not exist at all. It can't explain it ... unless you believe the people holding Fast Passes are increasing the amount of time they shop and eat (and sit on a park bench) as a result.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but after reading your last post, I'm convinced you don't understand the point I have been trying to make and I don't know how to explain it in another way. I'm describing two identical parks (same # of visitors, same attractions, all attractions working at full capacity, same hours of operation, same weather) only one park has the current Fast Pass system and the other has no Fast Passes in use for anyone - the ride capacity will be identical in both. You're discussing a situation (anecdotaly) where, in the second park, you don't get to use Fast Pass, but everyone else does - of course you're gonna wait longer.
Korfar
Active Member
Finally someone being honest. I would agree with you. Although overall I like fastpass and want it to stay.
David S.
Member
No, I understand what you are saying, that's why I also made references to the idea that FP makes the non FP attractions have longer lines because there are more people in them on the days where I DO use it. I've said that the time lost on those attractions would be less than the time gained by using FP, and now I will prove it - at least in the terms of how it works for me! I can see how that tangent I went off on may have gotten confusing, but see my EXTREMELY thorough one-day MK breakdown below!
Oh, but I CAN explain it! Not with hypothetical statistics, but with actual field experience! My Epcot example in a much earlier post CLEARLY explains it for that park, as that park doesn't even really HAVE any significantly long queues that are not part of the system.
But now I shall explain it for the MK:
On a typical full day at MK with a midnight close, I FP the following attractions if I start in Fantasyland:
Space Mountain Omega Front
Space Mountain Omega Back
Space Mountain Alpha Front
Space Mountain Alpha Back
Buzz Lightyear
Splash Mountain
Big Thunder Mountain Railroad Front
Big Thunder Mountain Railroad Back
Jungle Cruise
Peter Pan's Flight (night encore)
Pooh (night encore)
Sometimes I am able to aquire additional Space or BTMRR fastpasses for night encores as well - I can usually get at least one, especially if I elect to just double up on Space during the day rather than going for the double on both sides. (Of course, when I rope drop Space, I get doubles on both tracks at opening without needing a FP, but then Fantasyland takes longer and I need FPs for my first ride on Pooh and Pan, so it all evens out!)
At any rate, as per my list, we are looking at 11 attractions ridden with FP on a peak-season 8AM-midnight day by getting there early enough to start collecting when the return times are short - which means the windows to get your next one are ALSO short!
Realistically, deep down you KNOW that to do these attractions on a peak day at any time other than rope drop or close, you're looking at about 30-60 minutes for EACH, if not more, even if they had never invented Fastpass! And those times are generously on the short side.
Now, let us look at the scant few attractions in the park that actually aquire a line that DON'T offer Fastpass:
* The Fantasyland attractions (minus Pan and Pooh). But remember, in my example I did that section at rope drop, and walked on all 8 attractions!
* The Barnstormer - By touring Toontown right after Fantasyland, I'm getting Front/Back walk-ons on here, because Toontown opens one hour late each day!
* The Houses in Toontown may get a little crowded by late morning, but my touring approach allows time to savor them and I usually spend about 20 minutes in each, anyway!
So this leaves a mere 5 attractions that under your example MAY have a longer queue in this particular example than they would if Fastpass didn't exist:
* Speedway, Orbitor, Mansion, Pirates, Aladdin
Everything else I haven't already mentioned (Train, Main Street Vehicles, Peoplemover, Carousel of Progress, Stitch, Sonny Eclipse show (not really an "attraction", but I like it), Treehouse, Tiki Birds, Country Bear Jamboree, Tom Sawyer Island, Riverboat, and Hall of Presidents) I can pretty much walk right onto (or into) the next cycle on even a crowded day. So the existence of FP does not cost me any time on these.
So, getting back to the 5 I mentioned above. Speedway and Orbiter I usually have to wait between 20 and 40 min. Mansion 20 minutes or less, Pirates and Aladdin 20 minutes or less (and I often get walk-ons on them because I often do Adventureland during the first light parade and it's DEAD!
So, just for the sake of giving your argument the biggest possible benifit of the doubt, lets say I would have gotten WALK ONs on these if FP didn't exist (which you know wouldn't be true for Orbiter and Speedway). I'll be generous and say it takes me 90 minutes combined for Orbiter and Speedway with Fastpass existing.. I'll be generous and say I wait another 90 minutes combined for HM, Pirates, and Aladdin with FP existing. This is EXTREMELY generous because the reality is much less than that.
Add up these times and that is 3 hours extra I'm spending on these attractions, under the generous assumption that I could walk right on them if there was no Fastpass. So, that's 3 hours lost because of FP.
Now, go back to the example above of the 11 FPs I am using that are saving me between 30-60 minutes for each one of those rides. Even if I just give myself 30 minutes of savings for each, that is still 5 hours and 30 minutes of time GAINED by using the system to close to it's fullest potential. Subtract the generous 3 hour figure for time lost due to the other lines being longer, and in my case I am gaining 2 and a half hours of time on this sample day by using FP - and in reality, it's a lot longer!
Now, I hope you can clearly see where I've been coming from and trying to say all along!
Monty
Brilliant...and Canadian
- In the Parks
- No
Actually, my opinion equally unprovable is that all of your opinions expressed in this thread are equally unprovable, but you argue them incessently in apparent futile hope that volume creates veritas.
Once again with a FP thread.
At least no one brought up return times.....
Wait.....what? Nevermind.......
Oh, now I understand. Your argument is that Fast Pass is magic.
It's an anecdote that is as clear as mud. None of it explains how Fast Pass adds additional capacity and/or removes visitors from standing in a queue or being in a ride. In every instance where you say "I would have spent X time ..." I counter by saying "No, you would have spent less than X time, and in the end (when viewed in the aggregate - 14 hour day, 40k visitors), it would all balance itself out." It has to - unless you can come up with an explanation of where these people are going other than lines.
NORMNB8S
Member
This thread is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in the rambling, incoherent responses was there even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your souls.
Billy Madison? Anybody? No?
No one will be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their opinion is correct. You either love it or you hate it and that's perfectly fine either way. For those that love it, use it! For those that hate it, don't use it. That's why Disney offers it but doesn't require it, so that you as the guest can choose your poison. I for one use fastpass. Does it allow me to visit more attractions than I would otherwise? I feel like it does. Even if it doesn't, the key point is that I "feel" like it does and that is what makes me use it. I don't always go get a fastpass and then go get in another line. Sometimes I will grab a snack. Sometimes I will wander in and out of a store. Sometimes I may sit and people watch. Sometimes I may just wander around the park and look at the sites and take pictures. I'm sure that I'm not the only person who does that.
Billy Madison? Anybody? No?
No one will be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their opinion is correct. You either love it or you hate it and that's perfectly fine either way. For those that love it, use it! For those that hate it, don't use it. That's why Disney offers it but doesn't require it, so that you as the guest can choose your poison. I for one use fastpass. Does it allow me to visit more attractions than I would otherwise? I feel like it does. Even if it doesn't, the key point is that I "feel" like it does and that is what makes me use it. I don't always go get a fastpass and then go get in another line. Sometimes I will grab a snack. Sometimes I will wander in and out of a store. Sometimes I may sit and people watch. Sometimes I may just wander around the park and look at the sites and take pictures. I'm sure that I'm not the only person who does that.
David S.
Member
Maybe not, but it at leaves CLEARLY proves that I DO get to experience more per day by using the system, than I would if the system did not exist! Which you seemed to be disputing!
Did you miss the part where I said for every non-FP queue that would have a longer queue because of FP, I'd assume I'd get a walk-on on if FP didn't exist! So I'm actually GIVING you that. I'm letting you say I would have spent ZERO time in those queues, had FP didn't exist, even though that's not true. That was being extremely generous in favor of your argument, and yet I CLEARLY and UNDISPUTABLY show how FP saves me time!
I make no claims that it adds overall capacity to the park, and never have! Therefore, there is no burden on me to prove that it does. The explanation as to how it adds no capacity to the park but adds capacity for me is very simple. Obviously, the reason the system DOES add ride time to my day is because others choose not to use the system, and because of those who use it, not all use it to its fullest potential. If they did, my touring plans would not work because many of the FPs that save me time would be out for the day before I could get all that I wanted!
So maybe I should be selfish and not share my strategies with others!
(just kidding)
I have no problems with your claim that FP does not add capacity to the park. You're probably right. But what I object to is your assertion that I can't prove that on a typical full day at the MK, that I save time by using the system to the max. I proved it above with actual examples from REAL experience!
In other words, I think you are actually probably RIGHT from a COLLECTIVIST point of view, summing up the totals that everyone gets to experience. But from an INDIVIDUAL point of view of someone who knows how to work the system, it CLEARLY saves time compared to if it didn't exist. That's all I'm saying!
There is really no point in continuing this and we should agree to disagree. But I KNOW what the system does for me (because not everyone uses it), and that I'd get less done if it didn't exist.
David S.
Member
That's not very nice. I feel like I made all of my points very clear, "coherent" and "rational". And guess what! I also feel that Krack has been eloquent, "coherent", and "rational" as well, even though he has a difference of opinion!
You think it's dumb to read it, and yet you post in it?
muteki
Well-Known Member
Fastpass works well if you know what you are doing and how to work the system. Took us a couple trips to figure out how to do that, but it is pretty straightforward now. For the first timer I will agree it is a bit confusing.
I have my disagreements as to what rides actually have it vs what doesn't (I can see the inefficiency of using it for some rides) but in many cases it works well.
I also think it works better in MK due to the attraction density than in the other parks. What works so well in MK is that after you get a FP there are 5+ attractions in your immediate vicinity that don't need one that you can use to kill time while waiting on FP. In Epcot, for instance, this isn't the case. You either wait it out or walk a significant distance to the nearest attraction (FW East I am looking at you).
So FP in MK: great, if you know what you are doing. FP elsewhere: notsomuch.
I have my disagreements as to what rides actually have it vs what doesn't (I can see the inefficiency of using it for some rides) but in many cases it works well.
I also think it works better in MK due to the attraction density than in the other parks. What works so well in MK is that after you get a FP there are 5+ attractions in your immediate vicinity that don't need one that you can use to kill time while waiting on FP. In Epcot, for instance, this isn't the case. You either wait it out or walk a significant distance to the nearest attraction (FW East I am looking at you).
So FP in MK: great, if you know what you are doing. FP elsewhere: notsomuch.
NORMNB8S
Member
Just a movie quote my friend. It's from the movie Billy Madison. I just tweaked it a little bit. I was trying to bring a little humor to the otherwise "intense" thread. I've read the thread from the start and I agree that everyone has made their points very well.
Personally, I agree with your point that the fastpass user does, on average, visit more attractions in a given day than if fastpasses didn't exist.
mike10
New Member
I don't understand why anyone who is standing in a waiting line would get upset with a person by passing them on the FP line.
I mean you chose to wait in line you had the choice of grabbing a FP why look at me cold or upset because I bypass you in line? I experience this on my last trip and I wanted to say "If you didn't want me passing you in line then grab a FB next time."
But I acted like they didn't exist and kept walking sometimes that is the best thing to do.
I mean you chose to wait in line you had the choice of grabbing a FP why look at me cold or upset because I bypass you in line? I experience this on my last trip and I wanted to say "If you didn't want me passing you in line then grab a FB next time."
But I acted like they didn't exist and kept walking sometimes that is the best thing to do.
NORMNB8S
Member
Thanks for explaining! I was not familiar with that quote, and thought you were attacking us!
No attacks man. Not my style.