The end for refillable mugs?

Is there evidence that the new mugs will have barcode technology? Or are they going to use an RFID tag? Since there are numerous reports that Disney is going to spend an excess of 1 billion dollars on RFIDing the entire park, the mugs could certainly be incorporated in this change over. The actual chips will be negligible and the reading devices would be ubiquitous.

Opinion as fact, dontcha just luv the t'interweb.

PurpleDragon said:

So by your logic, based on the fact that a dozen or so people on a random WDW message board say they've been told the cups were good for life, that must mean that all CM's have been trained to say this and it must be WDW's global policy?

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I really think it's more than a dozen people saying this, but I'm not motivated enough to count. So just going with a dozen, for argument's sake:

We'd be talking about a dozen people who have never met each other, who come from different places all over the country, and whose trips have been spread out over years. We have people saying they were told this in the '90s, and we have people saying they get told this right up until now.

Based on that (and on the fact that I think the estimate of a dozen is really lowballing it if you search this topic's history), I think the suggestion that "a few CM's were just misinformed and passed on false information for a few months before being corrected" becomes less likely. If people are encountering this attitude over and over, year after year, then I think it becomes a LOT less likely.

So as of right now we have a picture from the early 2000's (with resort specific mugs) of a fountain at PO stating that the mugs were only good for length of stay. Yet we have no pictures of the "posted information" about mugs being good for life. But yet you are willing to believe the mugs being good for life argument despite the lack of evidence, that just boggles my mind.

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I'm not trying to discount the signs. I'm trying to reconcile them with (what seems to me) significant evidence that CM's are told something that doesn't quite line up with those signs. It makes me think Disney is talking out of both sides of its mouth on this.

Some people in here have said that the signs represent the REAL policy, but Disney trains its CMs not to enforce the signs because they don't want to make people mad. So even people who strongly feel the cups are not "good for life" have conceded that Disney is probably telling CM's to say they are.

My only point is that if you concede Disney is telling its people to encourage people to bring the cups back, then the reason behind that practice doesn't matter. At that point, it IS the policy...regardless of whether Disney would prefer people do the opposite and yes, even regardless of whether they hang signs that say the opposite, because if official company channels are communicating two policies — one more restrictive and one less restrictive — then the less restrictive of the two is pretty much automatically the real policy.

Again, none of this holds if you believe it's just a few rogue CM's misinforming people who then come on here and post. I just don't think that explanation holds up too well when you have so many people weighing in on that side.

This is just the conclusion that's most logical to me. If you disagree, it's all good. I honestly have no stake in this at all, since I drink water! :lol:

Wilt Dasney said:

We'd be talking about a dozen people who have never met each other, who come from different places all over the country, and whose trips have been spread out over years. We have people saying they were told this in the '90s, and we have people saying they get told this right up until now.

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Well if people are saying they are being told now that the mugs are good for life then either the guest is blatantly lying or the CM is. Seeing as its posted all over the place that the mugs are "Only good for your length of stay".

Wilt Dasney said:

Again, none of this holds if you believe it's just a few rogue CM's misinforming people who then come on here and post. I just don't think that explanation holds up too well when you have so many people weighing in on that side.

This is just the conclusion that's most logical to me. If you disagree, it's all good. I honestly have no stake in this at all, since I drink water! :lol:

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I'll add to the anecdotal evidence. My family hasn't bought a mug since 1998. Before then, we bought exactly 3. We bought 2 Wilderness Lodge mugs, one in 1994 (when it opened) and one in 1996 after we lost our previous mug. The other mug we bought was a Dixie Landings mug in 1997. We never stayed at the Wilderness Lodge, but we bought their mugs because they were also good to use at Fort Wilderness (FW didn't have its own mugs initially, Trails End was the only place to fill them). Even though we were staying at Fort Wilderness, we spent a lot of time at the Wilderness Lodge because we were allowed to use the pool there (that ended around 1998). There were no signs around the mugs or the beverage filling stations stating what the policy was. They simply said "Unlimited refills on return visits". Every single cast member that I or my family encountered was completely consistent about this. The mugs weren't just allowed for return visits, that's why most people bought them in the first place. We would go 3-4 times a year, always on school vacations, and we would frequently see the same families over and over (especially at Fort Wilderness), and everyone knew that the mugs were a good deal for repeat guests. It was also fairly clear, right around 1999 or so, when the policy changed to "length of stay". A picture of the mugs would be useless (though, if anyone really wants it, I can call my mom and ask her to take photos) because they didn't say anything. They just had resort logos.

Also - and I'm fuzzy on this because my parents were the ones buying the mugs, not me - but I recall the mugs in the mid - late 90's being expensive. $15 or so, which I think would be around $20 today? But, I admit, I may be wrong on just this last point.

I had a CM last week tell me something along the same lines as others. But, I also saw that she was more than likely a summer intern (with the name of her university on the nametag) so I didn't pay much mind to what she said. Then again, I only refilled my mug at the resort anyway.....

My family stayed in Wilderness Lodge back in the mid 90's, not too long after it opened, (only time I ever stayed there) and I clearly remember there being signs posted at Roaring Forks about the mugs being only for your length of stay, just as they are today.

My guess here is people see (or hear) the "Unlimited Refills" and assume it means for life. I think more than anything people were making assumptions more than being misinformed.

PurpleDragon said:

Well if people are saying they are being told now that the mugs are good for life then either the guest is blatantly lying or the CM is. Seeing as its posted all over the place that the mugs are "Only good for your length of stay".

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I guess the point I'm trying to make is it seems likely (to me) that CM's are being told to say something that doesn't line up with what's on the signs. It's been suggested in this thread that this happens because Disney doesn't want to "confront" guests on it.

And going from there, my point is that it really doesn't matter WHY CM's are being told to say anything (if indeed they are). If they're told to encourage people to bring the mugs back, then that's the policy, for better or for worse.

It'd be like an auto dealership that has a sticker price on a car of $50,000, but tells its salespeople to let it be sold for $45,000 if the customer asks. What's the real price in that case? It seems to me the answer is the real price is the lowest one the company allows the product to be sold for.

Similarly, if Disney hangs up signs saying you need to buy a new cup every trip, and at the same time tells its people that any cup purchased anytime gets free refills, then what's the real policy? The answer (again, it seems to me) is that the real policy is the one that requires the least investment from the customer.

No one would criticize a person for driving away in a new car after paying less than the sticker price, assuming they had gotten an agreement to do so from a salesperson. I'm saying I don't see why anyone should be criticized for getting a free refill on a 10-year-old cup, if the cashier or food court attendant tells them it's OK. (Especially the cashier. There was someone who posted here saying he always put his old cup on the tray, indicating it should be rung up, and STILL wasn't charged. If that's true, that seems like pretty crucial evidence.)

Again...if you conclude that people are lying, or CM's are wrong, then none of this logic is going to sway you. I'm just trying to explain my line of thinking here, based on the fact that I think the "lying/misinformed" line of reasoning looks less compelling the more posts I read here.

Wilt Dasney said:

I'm saying I don't see why anyone should be criticized for getting a free refill on a 10-year-old cup, if the cashier or food court attendant tells them it's OK.

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Thats assuming everyone asks. Most times I see people slip in the back door, fill their cup, and leave; or leave their mugs with a family member while they get their food, then fill their mugs after they have gotten their food and found a table. I've never seen anyone go up and ask a CM if it was okay to fill an old resort mug.

While I won't argue that there are probably some CM's who don't care if people use old mugs because they've never been told an official policy or they just felt like being nice. But to assume that something like this is Disney's official policy and they are talking out of both sides of their mouth is silly. If that was in fact the case, then explain to me why they would be investigating the technology in the OP, which pretty much would be the death of reusing old resort mugs, along with any other random container people use to steal soda.

PurpleDragon said:

While I won't argue that there are probably some CM's who don't care if people use old mugs because they've never been told an official policy or they just felt like being nice.

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If CM's aren't being told ANYTHING to say on this, then I would think that supports my view. Disney would have to choose to omit any mention of the refill policy in training for that to be the case, which would mean they don't take their own policy very seriously.

The possibility that these folks are just being nice is certainly possible, but again seems less likely to me the more times we hear about it happening.

But to assume that something like this is Disney's official policy and they are talking out of both sides of their mouth is silly. If that was in fact the case, then explain to me why they would be investigating the technology in the OP, which pretty much would be the death of reusing old resort mugs, along with any other random container people use to steal soda.

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Just to be clear, I never said it was Disney's official policy that cups are good for life. I said that if CM's are told to say that in contradiction to the food court signs, then it becomes the de facto policy (i.e., the one that's actually enforced in day-to-day operations). That, to me, is the more important designation.

If the new technology is implemented AND CM's are told to consistently parrot the line that cups are good for length of stay only, then I would explain that very simply as a change of policy.

It seems very likely to me that Disney is, at the very least, not stressing the length of stay policy in employee training. To assume otherwise based on all the detailed stories here seems a stretch to me. You'd have to assume some combination of A.) an army of CM's walking around blatantly ignoring or misunderstanding a very simple policy (good for length of stay) and/or B.) a pretty high number of guests who have never met one another and whose vacations span years, who have all independently created from whole cloth a policy that was never publicized in writing (or was publicized for a very limited period over a decade ago).

No offense, but that's the kind of conclusion that seems silly to me.

PurpleDragon said:

My family stayed in Wilderness Lodge back in the mid 90's, not too long after it opened, (only time I ever stayed there) and I clearly remember there being signs posted at Roaring Forks about the mugs being only for your length of stay, just as they are today.

My guess here is people see (or hear) the "Unlimited Refills" and assume it means for life. I think more than anything people were making assumptions more than being misinformed.

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From http://www.portorleans.org/mugs.php

Before around 2000 the mugs were sold on a “perpetually refillable” basis, so if you still happen to have an older desgin — even dating back to the old Port Orleans/Dixie Landings days — then Disney should permit you to refill it based on the terms under which it was originally sold. Let’s put it this way, I’ve yet to see anyone tackled by a cast member on the subject, even with a fifteen year old mug... but don’t hold me to that!

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From more research, it looks like the "length of stay" policy was getting signage ~2002. Here's an archived Intercot discussion about the mugs from 2001, and a few folks mention the value of bringing them back trip after trip. Note that absolutely no one mentions a "length of stay" policy.

http://www.intercot.com/discussion/archive/index.php?t-48770.html

fyn said:

From http://www.portorleans.org/mugs.php

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That is still the same old anecdote that we have been hearing over and over again. It is no more proof of a lifetime refillable mug than the surgeon's photo is proof of the Loc Ness monster.

fyn said:

From http://www.portorleans.org/mugs.php

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So a fan site dedicated to PO should be taken as fact? His testimony is no different than the testimony of others on this site. Until I see a picture of a sign or a mug that states that mugs were "Good for life" I'm going to remain skeptical. Especially since I have experiences that are a stark contrast from others here. I've never been told my mugs were ever good for life, which is why I've always bought a new one on every trip. As I stated earlier I used to have mugs dating back to the mid 90's but my wife made me get rid of a lot of them cause they were clogging up much needed cabinet space. Had I been told they were good for life I would not have bought new mugs on my subsequent trips.


EDIT: LOL Yoda beat me to the punch.

Master Yoda said:

That is still the same old anecdote that we have been hearing over and over again. It is no more proof of a lifetime refillable mug than the surgeon's photo is proof of the Loc Ness monster.

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Like I said earlier in this thread: Anyone demanding visual proof that the mugs were ever promoted this way can probably rest secure in the knowledge that no one will ever provide it. The brief nature of the alleged promotion, the lack of a widely-used commercial internet at the time, and Disney's thorough efforts at scrubbing any mention of it from the food courts in recent years pretty much assures you will never see a photo of a sign saying "Free Refills For Life."

At some point, the weight of anecdotal evidence either causes you to say "there must be something to this"...or it doesn't. But just understand that on something like this, anecdotal evidence is very likely to be all you're ever going to get. That shouldn't be a mark against that evidence, when the nature of the beast pretty much precludes any other type.

Wilt Dasney said:

Like I said earlier in this thread: Anyone demanding visual proof that the mugs were ever promoted this way can probably rest secure in the knowledge that no one will ever provide it. The brief nature of the alleged promotion, the lack of a widely-used commercial internet at the time, and Disney's thorough efforts at scrubbing any mention of it from the food courts in recent years pretty much assures you will never see a photo of a sign saying "Free Refills For Life."

At some point, the weight of anecdotal evidence either causes you to say "there must be something to this"...or it doesn't. But just understand that on something like this, anecdotal evidence is very likely to be all you're ever going to get. That shouldn't be a mark against that evidence, when the nature of the beast pretty much precludes any other type.

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But there are pictures from either the early 2000's or late 90's I posted on an earlier page that shows the resort specific mugs for $10.99 and it was specifically stated to be for your length of stay only. This directly contradicts many of the claims made by people who say it was advertised as "Good for life" during that same time. So with 2 different claims during the same time, one with proof and one with "anecdotal evidence", I'm gonna go with the side that has proof because that would be using logical thinking.

I don't doubt that some people misunderstood the "unlimited refills" statement on many of the signs and posters in the resorts to mean good for life, especially since the "good for your length of stay" statement is in such fine print on many of the signs. So its far more likely/logical that its a case of misunderstanding rather than a mass conspiracy by Disney.

Wilt Dasney said:

Like I said earlier in this thread: Anyone demanding visual proof that the mugs were ever promoted this way can probably rest secure in the knowledge that no one will ever provide it. The brief nature of the alleged promotion, the lack of a widely-used commercial internet at the time, and Disney's thorough efforts at scrubbing any mention of it from the food courts in recent years pretty much assures you will never see a photo of a sign saying "Free Refills For Life."

At some point, the weight of anecdotal evidence either causes you to say "there must be something to this"...or it doesn't. But just understand that on something like this, anecdotal evidence is very likely to be all you're ever going to get. That shouldn't be a mark against that evidence, when the nature of the beast pretty much precludes any other type.

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The plural of anecdotes is not data. Many people claim to see have big foot, even more say they have seen alien space craft and even more claim that homeopathy works better than traditional medicine.

When someone provides actual evidence I will believe it. Until then free life time refill mugs at WDW will remain in the plausible category.

PurpleDragon said:

I've never been told my mugs were ever good for life, which is why I've always bought a new one on every trip.

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Quick question: When you say you've never been told your mugs are good for life, do you mean you've asked CM's whether you could bring your mugs back and been told no, or do you mean that no CM has ever volunteered that information to you?

If it's the first, I could see where you conclude CM's saying the opposite are misinformed. If it's the second, then it's exactly what I would expect to be the case.

Wilt Dasney said:

Quick question: When you say you've never been told your mugs are good for life, do you mean you've asked CM's whether you could bring your mugs back and been told no, or do you mean that no CM has ever volunteered that information to you?

If it's the first, I could see where you conclude CM's saying the opposite are misinformed. If it's the second, then it's exactly what I would expect to be the case.

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Why would I ask if they are good for life when it was posted all over the place that they were length of stay? To ask a question to which the answer is 5 feet from my head would be stupid on my part. Now if a CM were to say "Hey you know these mugs are good for life?" Then I would think twice, but that has never happened.

Wilt Dasney said:

Quick question: When you say you've never been told your mugs are good for life, do you mean you've asked CM's whether you could bring your mugs back and been told no, or do you mean that no CM has ever volunteered that information to you?

If it's the first, I could see where you conclude CM's saying the opposite are misinformed. If it's the second, then it's exactly what I would expect to be the case.

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A CM claiming that the mugs are good for life is just another anecdote. CM's give out incorrect information quite frequently.

Master Yoda said:

A CM claiming that the mugs are good for life is just another anecdote. CM's give out incorrect information quite frequently.

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LOL, there are tons of threads on this site that prove that time and time again. :ROFLOL: