Disney gets on board with fast-train proposal

lazyboy97o said:

To be able to exert political power, one needs to have political organization. TP2000 keeps outlining how the people of Florida are not that dedicated. No president is just going to promise funds to Florida alone as the rest of the country would not stand for it. The state also needs a means by which to lobby Congress, which needs to be convinced of the needs to spend Billions in Florida alone.

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I'm not saying it would all go to Florida. The 8 billion or so is just a drop in the bucket of what all the high speed rail would cost in total.

What I am saying is that funds will be distributed with their political impact as a motivator. That really helps Florida's chances.

Here is a hint: California always votes the same way. Florida....not so much.

jt04 said:

What I am saying is that funds will be distributed with their political impact as a motivator. That really helps Florida's chances.

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A political impact limited to the few seeking the presidency and ignoring those in Congress who may get reamed for sponsoring a program that so far the people of Florida have not taken all that seriously. Unless Disney is going to pony up the cash there is still a lot more work and organizing to be done.

lazyboy97o said:

A political impact limited to the few seeking the presidency and ignoring those in Congress who may get reamed for sponsoring a program that so far the people of Florida have not taken all that seriously. Unless Disney is going to pony up the cash there is still a lot more work and organizing to be done.

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Congress has already approved the money. It is up to the executive branch to pick the winners and losers at this point. The announcement is to come next month.

jt04 said:

Congress has already approved the money. It is up to the executive branch to pick the winners and losers at this point. The announcement is to come next month.

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But the Feds just aren't going to hand over a few Billion to a state that has done absolutely nothing to get a bond measure on the ballot and chip in a few Billion of their own state money. Where's the ballot measure and the bond money from the Sunshine State?

It's up to the individual state (Read: the voters) to pay for the bulk of their railroad. The Feds will then chip in some money as well. It's the same for highways, subways, streetcars, airports, etc. that usually get a 50/50 funding source at best, and at worst only get 15% of their funding from the Federal Government.

The exception was the Interstate Highway System. Those specific highways were all generally paid for by a 90/10 funding agreement, with the Feds chipping in 90% of the cost of the highway routes they had previously determined. Some states forfeit their Federal funds when the local citizenry protested too much over the highway route planned by the Feds. See the 1960's saga of the Mt. Hood Freeway in Portland for a perfect example of that missing piece of the Interstate Highway System.

But a state owned and operated railroad won't be getting the majority of its funding from the Feds, regardless of which state it is or how many electoral votes it has.

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jt04 said:

Congress has already approved the money. It is up to the executive branch to pick the winners and losers at this point. The announcement is to come next month.

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Well, let's also bear in mind that the individual states have to sell their plans to the Department of Transportation as well. And those states whose projects are more "shovel-ready" and that have the land not just allocated but also largely under government control will be put to the top of the list. That's what happened when Amtrak wanted to develop high-speed rail between D.C., New York and Boston. So much of the exisiting rail line was already under the control of Amtrak that it was relatively easy to obtain the funding and get the program implemented.

TP2000 said:

But the Feds just aren't going to hand over a few Billion to a state that has done absolutely nothing to get a bond measure on the ballot and chip in a few Billion of their own state money. Where's the ballot measure and the bond money from the Sunshine State?

It's up to the individual state (Read: the voters) to pay for the bulk of their railroad. The Feds will then chip in some money as well. It's the same for highways, subways, streetcars, airports, etc. that usually get a 50/50 funding source at best, and at worst only get 15% of their funding from the Federal Government.

The exception was the Interstate Highway System. Those specific highways were all generally paid for by a 90/10 funding agreement, with the Feds chipping in 90% of the cost of the highway routes they had previously determined. Some states forfeit their Federal funds when the local citizenry protested too much over the highway route planned by the Feds. See the 1960's saga of the Mt. Hood Freeway in Portland for a perfect example of that missing piece of the Interstate Highway System.

But a state owned and operated railroad won't be getting the majority of its funding from the Feds, regardless of which state it is or how many electoral votes it has.

.

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wm49rs said:

Well, let's also bear in mind that the individual states have to sell their plans to the Department of Transportation as well. And those states whose projects are more "shovel-ready" and that have the land not just allocated but also largely under government control will be put to the top of the list. That's what happened when Amtrak wanted to develop high-speed rail between D.C., New York and Boston. So much of the exisiting rail line was already under the control of Amtrak that it was relatively easy to obtain the funding and get the program implemented.

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Perhaps you guys don't quite understand politics "Chicago Style".

That money allocated for high speed rail is viewed as political leverage and it will not be handed out without the possibility of something in return. Such as electoral votes. Cali has nothing to offer because politically the die is cast (as they only vote one way) not to mention financially. So let's not be so naive and pretend things are like they used to be. The rule book is being shredded. :king:

As for comparing the high speed rail plan to the interstate Eisenhower built, well I believe the current administration sees high speed rail in the same light. That 8 billion is just a down payment in their eyes. You will be going onto mass transit and YOU WILL LIKE IT! Savvy? :drevil:

jt04 said:

Perhaps you guys don't quite understand politics "Chicago Style".

That money allocated for high speed rail is viewed as political leverage and it will not be handed out without the possibility of something in return. Such as electoral votes. Cali has nothing to offer because politically the die is cast (as they only vote one way) not to mention financially. So let's not be so naive and pretend things are like they used to be. The rule book is being shredded. :king:

As for comparing the high speed rail plan to the interstate Eisenhower built, well I believe the current administration sees high speed rail in the same light. That 8 billion is just a down payment in their eyes. You will be going onto mass transit and YOU WILL LIKE IT! Savvy? :drevil:

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Is there anything you do not use the "things are different now" line to explain? Florida has nothing to offer in terms of being ready to get started and there is little hope of not having a backlash against pouring so much money in a state that is not committed.

jt04 said:

Perhaps you guys don't quite understand politics "Chicago Style".

That money allocated for high speed rail is viewed as political leverage and it will not be handed out without the possibility of something in return. Such as electoral votes. Cali has nothing to offer because politically the die is cast (as they only vote one way) not to mention financially. So let's not be so naive and pretend things are like they used to be. The rule book is being shredded. :king:

As for comparing the high speed rail plan to the interstate Eisenhower built, well I believe the current administration sees high speed rail in the same light. That 8 billion is just a down payment in their eyes. You will be going onto mass transit and YOU WILL LIKE IT! Savvy? :drevil:

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Don't tell me what I do and don't understand when it comes to politics. And please don't try to detail the machinations of the federal grant process just to fit some belief system you have. Whether you want to believe it or not, the grant process has to follow certain guidelines and mandates, period.

wm49rs said:

Don't tell me what I do and don't understand when it comes to politics. And please don't try to detail the machinations of the federal grant process just to fit some belief system you have. Whether you want to believe it or not, the grant process has to follow certain guidelines and mandates, period.

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Yeah right, uh-huh :lookaroun


:lol:

jt04 said:

Yeah right, uh-huh :lookaroun


:lol:

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Great retort. Really get us where we hurt. Not. :hammer:

jt04 said:

Perhaps you guys don't quite understand politics "Chicago Style".

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I've never lived in Chicago, but luckily for our country the infamous political machine from that corrupt city has so far limited their damage to screwing up the guest list for a big dinner party while Speaker Pelosi does all the heavy lifting over in the Capitol building.

That said, as a person who has actively followed mass transit and passenger rail development for the past two decades, it is my opinion that the best Florida can hope for from the 8 Billion Dollar kitty the Feds have to dole out is a few hundred million in planning funds to get Florida more organized and ready to seriously apply for Federal funding within a decade.

California is the most serious contender, with 9 Billion in bond funds and plenty of political capital already committed. The Seattle-Portland route is high on the list too, with lots of political will and an already established dedicated route using snazzy Spanish Talgo tilt trainsets they are proposing to speed up with new tracks and separated grades. The NE Corridor has applied for money too, to upgrade and update their 10 year old Acela equipment that is being held beneath the designed maximum speeds due to aging infrastructure.

Florida needs some seed money to establish a dedicated state commission, and they could get some seed money from this Federal handout. My suggestion to Florida when they get the few bucks would be to start holding regular meetings immediately (last one held in May, '09) and hire someone who is not in Junior High to build them a new website.

Florida High Speed Rail
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/

California High Speed Rail
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

Might I also humbly suggest that the good people of both Tampa and Orlando begin planning and scoping and designing their stations now? There have been no plans and no definitive locations called out for either station, and a big station can be used to spur huge development in city centers and multi-modal centers.

As an example I present ARTIC, the station that both the City of Anaheim and Orange County has been jointly working on for nearly a decade, and it's likely the first station to be built for California High Speed Rail. http://www.octa.net/M2Project.aspx?EntryId=343&TabId=1331

There's plenty of work to be done by Floridians to get High Speed Rail out of the starting gates in the Sunshine State.

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TP2000 said:

I've never lived in Chicago, but luckily for our country the infamous political machine from that corrupt city has so far limited their damage to screwing up the guest list for a big dinner party while Speaker Pelosi does all the heavy lifting over in the Capitol building.

That said, as a person who has actively followed mass transit and passenger rail development for the past two decades, it is my opinion that the best Florida can hope for from the 8 Billion Dollar kitty the Feds have to dole out is a few hundred million in planning funds to get Florida more organized and ready to seriously apply for Federal funding within a decade.

California is the most serious contender, with 9 Billion in bond funds and plenty of political capital already committed. The Seattle-Portland route is high on the listtoo, with lots of political will and an already established dedicated route using snazzy Spanish Talgo tilt trainsets they are proposing to speed up with new tracks and separated grades. The NE Corridor has applied for money too, to upgrade and update their 10 year old Acela equipment that is being held beneath the designed maximum speeds due to aging infrastructure.

Florida needs some seed money to establish a dedicated state commission, and they could get some seed money from this Federal handout. My suggestion to Florida when they get the few bucks would be to start holding regular meetings immediately (last held in May, '09) and hire someone who is not in Junior High to build them a new website.

Florida High Speed Rail
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/

California High Speed Rail
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

.

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We will soon know. Within 60 days to be sure. I say electoral votes carry more weight than the quality of web sites. But I go out on the limb a lot. I allow myself the freedom to be wrong. Time will tell. To be more specific, I think Florida and/or other "politically strategic" states will get the bulk of the 8 billion dollars. I'm not saying Cali won't get anything but I'll be suprised if it's much.

jt04 said:

We will soon know. Within 60 days to be sure. I say electoral votes carry more weight than the quality of web sites. But I go out on the limb a lot. I allow myself the freedom to be wrong. Time will tell. To be more specific, I think Florida and/or other "politically strategic" states will get the bulk of the 8 billion dollars. I'm not saying Cali won't get anything but I'll be suprised if it's much.

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You do understand that in your premise of "politically strategic" states that California has more than double the number of electoral votes than Florida, right?

jt04 said:

To be more specific, I think Florida and/or other "politically strategic" states will get the bulk of the 8 billion dollars. I'm not saying Cali won't get anything but I'll be suprised if it's much.

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I would encourage you to read the summaries of the Top 10 high speed corridors on the Federal Railroad Administration website. They've provided a neat summary of the financial and political backing of each corridor, plus some recent history on how the locals have reacted to plans and ballot measures, effectively separating the men from the boys.

Compare and contrast the wording and details of the Florida page to the summaries of California or the Pacific Northwest. It's quite revealing when the Feds sum up each corridor plan in a paragraph or two. http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/203

wm49rs said:

You do understand that in your premise of "politically strategic" states that California has more than double the number of electoral votes than Florida, right?

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It's not like anyone in the current administration is worried about Cali not voting like they do in every presidential election. Cali has essentially become a one party state. And everyone knows that. So there is no need to cater to that state. Nothing to gain that the politicians don't already have. Purple states however are a different story.

TP2000 said:

I would encourage you to read the summaries of the Top 10 high speed corridors on the Federal Railroad Administration website. They've provided a neat summary of the financial and political backing of each corridor, plus some recent history on how the locals have reacted to plans and ballot measures, effectively separating the men from the boys.

Compare and contrast the wording and details of the Florida page to the summaries of California or the Pacific Northwest. It's quite revealing when the Feds sum each corridor plan up in a paragraph or two. http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/203

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Having your t's crossed and your i's dotted will not be what decides it. Political expediancy will be. IMO.

jt04 said:

It's not like anyone in the current administration is worried about Cali not voting like they do in every presidential election. Cali has essentially become a one party state. And everyone knows that. So there is no need to cater to that state. Nothing to gain that the politicians don't already have. Purple states however are a different story.

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You really just don't get it, do you? The fact that California went to Obama in 2008 in no way guarantees that will happen in 2012. Not with one of the largest economies IN THE WORLD (CA's) on the constant verge of bankruptcy and the unemployment rate is in the double digits. This administration has to consider every state, not just the ones that fit into some sort of preconceived notion of yours. And the state with the greatest number of electoral votes is going to loom large in a decision like this.

jt04 said:

Having your t's crossed and your i's dotted will not be what decides it. Political expediancy will be. IMO.

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But I'm sure the team that put together the Florida application used spell check before they sent it up to DC.

This is what stuck out for me, reading those application summaries;

California - Multiple dedicated State funded long-distance passenger routes since the 1980's (Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin Service, and Capitol Service), 9 Billion Dollar bond passed by voters in '08

Pacific Northwest - Dedicated State funded long-distance passenger route shared by Washington and Oregon since the 1980's (Cascades Talgo Service), 18 Billion Dollar bond passed by Washington voters in '08, Oregon has 2.1 Billion

Florida - No State funded long-distance passenger routes (ever), No bond money and nothing on ballot, last rail ballot measure in '04 defeated by 64% of voters

To be fair, there are other applications that are in worse shape than Florida. The South Central plan, the Keystone plan, and the Las Vegas plan are even weaker politically and intellectually. Chicago has political legwork yet to do, but at least they've got a decent website. http://www.midwesthsr.org/ :lol:

And California can tilt right politically quite easily. Just ask Ronald Reagan and Arnold Schwarzenegger. California is in the worst of the Great Recession, with state unemployment now above 12%. Any political party, left or right, who takes California's 55 electoral votes for granted in 2010 does so at their own risk.

TP2000 said:

But I'm sure the team that put together the Florida application used spell check before they sent it up to DC.

This is what stuck out for me, reading those application summaries;

California - Multiple dedicated State funded passenger routes since the 1980's (Surfliner, San Joaquin Service, Capitol Service), 9 Billion Dollar bond passed overwhelmingly by voters in '08

Pacific Northwest - Dedicated State funded passenger route in Washington and Oregon since the 1980's (Cascades Talgo Service), 18 Billion Dollar bond passed overwhelmingly by voters in '08

Florida - No State funded passenger routes (ever), No bond money passed, last rail ballot measure in '04 defeated by 64% of voters

And California can tilt right politically quite easily. Just ask Ronald Reagan and Arnold Schwarzenegger. Any political party, left or right, who takes California for granted in 2010 does so at their own risk.

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I hope you are right. I really think there are places where high speed rail makes sense as an investment. Where, if applied properly could help the economy. And that should be the ONLY consideration. Some examples to me are LA-San Fran, LA-Annaheim-Vegas, Orlando-WDW-Tampa, Eastern corridor, especially Washington-Baltimore.

jt04 said:

I think Florida and/or other "politically strategic" states will get the bulk of the 8 billion dollars. I'm not saying Cali won't get anything but I'll be suprised if it's much.

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Yep... we shall see.