Monorail Expansion?

Originally posted by plpeters70


Excuse me MrPromey - you know what I think is stupid? Relpying to a post I made days ago without bothering to read what I wrote later - like where I said that FantasiaBoi has convinced me that monorails are not the best way to go as WDW now stands. Maybe you should try reading the whole thread before being so nasty.

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plpeters70, you are excused

Look, all I know is you introduced the word "stupid" into the discussion yourself and it took FantasiaBoi saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over for any of it to sink in and you still don't seem to get it. What I was saying was that there was no need for you to be calling the greater population stupid since you either weren't grasping or chose to ignore what was being said to you. I wasn't calling you stupid, just pointing out that maybe the rest of the world isn't really miles behind you I guess if you really think we are all stupid, they in your mind that is what I was calling you though... I replied to you at the point I had gotten to in this thread and while I may have been wrong for not having read through the whole thing before I replied, I can tell you that it woudln't have been four pages deep up to that point if you had let it sink in the first time Fantasia Boi said that the problem had to do with the TRAFFIC FLOW - not Disney being cheap, not the layout of the resort and not whatever else you think up at this point. None the less my hasty reply is still not totally out of place since in spite of his numerous statements, you still don't seem to get it.

BTW, did you only read those first few lines of my post or are they all that mattered to you? Next time you quote me, please include the entire relevant part of the quote - as I said before, I DIDN'T call you stupid - although my opinion of your aptitude is starting to go down.

What I said was:

"Stupid? Hmm... Well, I have seen some very good arguments from people that seem to know a lot more on this subject than you and you still continue to argue your side with full understanding that you know less about it than the ones you are arguing with. I don't think I'd go so far as to call that stupid but it might be something you want to think about. You seem to want to get rid of busses come hell or high watter just because you don't like them which is fine but you not liking them is not much of an argument in this discussion."

Since you brought it up - you know what I think is stupid? Cutting off part of a reply in a quote to make a person look like they meant something they didn't and not expecting anyone to notice with the original post only being a page behind.

Originally posted by garyhoov
I don't think the concept of a purely park to park monorail system should be dismissed too quickly. While it is certainly not an answer to a very complex transportation issue, it would keep the romance of the monorail alive.

A nice park to park system would take some of the pressure off the busses and help distribute guests more evenly around the parks preventing some of the build-up that sometimes occurs at certain parks for special events. It could also serve as a first step in a more comprehensive transportation plan.

It would obviously be expensive and the benefit part of the cost/benefit equation would have to include the benefit of satisfying the types of passionate people who post on this board. I think there is unquestionable value there that won't show up on the bottom line of a spreadsheet.

We have seen over the past few days that Monorail simply can't absorb all of Disney Worlds transportation needs, but it still can be a small, highly visible component.

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There isn't much pressure on park to park service. It's pressure on park to resort service. Adding park to park service isn't needed. Buses easily take care of that demand.

You talk about cost/benefit and bottom lines. Having park to park monorails isn't smart. You can't add in people's pleasure into a cost/benefit analysis. Simply there are too many thoughts and opinions of the guests. The only benefits that can be added are business ones.

Actually it would show up on the balance sheet as a big expense, thus making it a bad investment for the company. With the way the economy is now, businesses better look at the bottom line, not the benefit a project such as a monorail expansion would have.

Originally posted by GaryT977


I understand the desire to make everyone happy, but to me there's nothing worse then trying to make things work to the lowest common denominator.

As much as I enjoy Disney every time I'm there, I find things that could bother me if I let them. There's no way to make everyone happy all the time, and there's no way to dumb things down so much that everyone will understand it.

The problem with with planning things that way is that it becomes an excuse not to try new things, for fear they are too complicated for the masses.

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I don't know if you are for/against Tyler in this post. I think disagreeing.

Disney has to be simple and keep things in lowest denominators. By adding in colors/numbers/directions to monorails would be extremely difficult for everyone to understand. Trying new things would be terrible for lots of things. Just look at FastPass. The monorail and transportation system would be too.

It's hard enough trying to explain how much a guest from another land owes when they barely speak English.

I don't have facts or figures, but I believe that guests were more confused back when flags were used for transportation.

Making the monorails more complex would make transportation even worse. There are enough people that get confused with the current monorail system. That's another reason why I'm against expanding the system. Adding more will just add more confusion, which will lead to even longer delays of people getting to where they want to go.

Value

Originally posted by garyhoov
I think there is unquestionable value there that won't show up on the bottom line of a spreadsheet.

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Yes, it shows up at the TOP of Disney's Web site! The obvious romance is the added value of the monorail, and that added value is significant. It represented the cool, futuristic world that EPCOT envisioned, but more than that, it was just plain cool. That is why it is on the web site, which has nothing at all to do with transportation.

I personally think that the MK monorail carrying guests to and through the resorts for 30 years is singularly responsible for attracting day visitors to the idea of doing more at Disney World. The spiel on that monorail is invaluable as a promotional tool for pushing day visitors (who almost always see "Disney World" as solely the Magic Kingdom) to come back and do more. A bus or parking lot right outside the entrance could never do that!

Now, as for the transportation itself, I do think that the fact that the monorail goes when traffic does not is important. A well-designed system may not fix all woes but does go along way.

How abotu a big TTC that has liens going to MGM, EPCOT, Magic Kingdom, and Animal Kingdom

That is a good point. I have always seen the monorails as an attraction and not just a mode of transportation. This has probably already been said, but you get a much better view of the World from a monorail perspective. (Well, at least around the lagoon). I often just go on the monorail for the ride.

And things like running the monorail through the contemporary are not just done for convenience reasons, they look cool. The architects originally didn't want the monorail to go through the hotel, but Walt insisted that without doing that, the hotel would be lacking in quality. I mean, really, the contemporary isn't much compared to the rest of the resorts nowadays, and it is being saved by having the monorail go through it: it looks cool!

So if Disney can think of something cool to do with the monorail, like run it through a park or resort in an interesting way, then mabey it will have potential for being built, and not just for a means for transportation.

Re: Value

Originally posted by prberk





I personally think that the MK monorail carrying guests to and through the resorts for 30 years is singularly responsible for attracting day visitors to the idea of doing more at Disney World. The spiel on that monorail is invaluable as a promotional tool for pushing day visitors (who almost always see "Disney World" as solely the Magic Kingdom) to come back and do more. A bus or parking lot right outside the entrance could never do that!

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Most day visitors live in Orlando or the surrounding area. I don't know that many people in Florida that don't know there is more to WDW than the MK.

I think if disney built some buses only roads. the buses could make trips from one place and back faster with faster top speeds less brakeing at all the stop lights, would save a lot of time at peak times when the roads are jamed .It would save fuel, less upkeep all around for the buses, one bus could make more trips in one hour so less buses would be needed. disney would have to do alot of planing but I think some thing like this would cost a lot less then a monorail expansion.

Re: Value

Originally posted by prberk



Yes, it shows up at the TOP of Disney's Web site! The obvious romance is the added value of the monorail, and that added value is significant. It represented the cool, futuristic world that EPCOT envisioned, but more than that, it was just plain cool. That is why it is on the web site, which has nothing at all to do with transportation.

I personally think that the MK monorail carrying guests to and through the resorts for 30 years is singularly responsible for attracting day visitors to the idea of doing more at Disney World. The spiel on that monorail is invaluable as a promotional tool for pushing day visitors (who almost always see "Disney World" as solely the Magic Kingdom) to come back and do more. A bus or parking lot right outside the entrance could never do that!

Now, as for the transportation itself, I do think that the fact that the monorail goes when traffic does not is important. A well-designed system may not fix all woes but does go along way.

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After all that has been said here, and all numbers that Tyler has posted, you seriously believe Disney shouldstart a monorail expansion simply because it's cool, and because they have it on their website? And adding to that thought, you also seriously think that the monorail is the main reason why Guests return to WDW?

Wow.

Without getting into a fight, because, after all, we're all posting our opinions here, I've been to WDW 5 times, and I believe I used the monorail in the first 4 times because I was in a tour group (and the guide NEEDS to show people the monorail) and the last one because I was a CM and, I was only at the parks during empty times. You gotta admit, with all the coolness and stuff, the lines at the end of the day are just MURDER.

Forget the monorail. Forget the buses. What we need are huge slingshots at each resort pointed toward the parks and huge slingshots at each park pointed toward the resorts. We'd need correspondingly large nets at each spot, of course, to catch the guests. We'd also need CMs as "air traffic controllers" to make sure no one collided mid-air. Cheaper than monorail expansion, cheaper than bus maintenance. And fun, too!:animwink:

monorail expansion

I still don't see why my idea wouldn't work. For one thing, at the park exits at MK and Epcot, there would be two different monorail routes for people to get on- not everyone would be trying to get on the same one. And if the tracks were doubled and full-size cars used, since the monorails would only be going to the major parks and DD, each monorail could probably hold 500 people, therefore, as many as 2000 people could get on the monorails at the park exits every 10 minutes or so. (500 per monorail x double track x 2 different directions at MK and Epcot). This would seem to me to be enough to handle a park exit. This could exit at least 12000 people per hour, plus as many as 1/3 would not be getting on the monorail at park exit if their resort was within peoplemover range (i.e. MK resort area or Epcot resort area). I have waited over 45 minutes to get on a bus to Caribbean Beach before, so I don't see how this could be any worse, in fact, much better! Plus no dark cloud of smoke! No environmental worries! Wow factor! Magic! If I knew how, I would draw you guys a map of what it would look like. In response to WDW freak, I don't think having the AK monorail coming from MGM would be any better. It would just make Epcot and MGM the hubs instead of Epcot and MK. And I think MK would make a better hub since that park is busier. Anyway, I still don't see any real problems with this plan, other than it would cost a lot, but any plan is going to cost a lot. Imagine two full-size monorail cars pulling up in front of the Magic Kingdom at the same time, and 1000 people getting on all at once! Now THAT would be impressive transport power!

Maybe Disney should look at building their own synthetic fuel plant. In the city where I live, there is a major chemical plant. I have met and talked with several chemists who work in R&D, and they've all said the same thing. There are formulas for clean burning, non-polluting synthetic fuels. There have been for years. And many of them require very little, if at any, modification to current engines.

The problem is consumption. There is so much fossil fuel used in this country alone, that there is no way enough plants could be built to handle the demand (that's what the chemists said).

But, if Disney wanted to be a pioneer, they could pave the way with a synthetic fuel plant for use with buses, motorboats, and trams. No more pollution from buses, boats, etc., and transportation would still be flexible.

Of course, this doesn't help with any ideas for monorail expansion, but there'd be one less argument against buses.

I think it is our responsibility to fight the bean counter mentality. If the bean counter mentality becomes too prevelant, Disney ceases to exist.

Tyler mentioned that the busses are cleaned and detailed every night. How does that put money in shareholder's pockets?

Disney absolutely has to do things "because they're cool". That is their whole reason for being.

Why do they need ears on the water tower? I'm sure it would have been less expensive to leave them off. Why carve animals in the Tree of Life? Wouldn't simple bark be easier and less expensive. Why does the Monorail go through the Contemporary? They could fit more rooms without that big hole and collect more $$$$$$.

I don't think it's a matter of having a "bean counter" mentality. I think it's a matter of weighing what would work, and what wouldn't. Tyler has shared alot of information, based on his experience, knowledge, training, and perceptions (key word) that he has from working in WDW transportation. He has pointed out several times that expanding the monorail would not work due to the logistics. Great. If he posted flow charts, showing numbers of guest flow during different times of the day, monorail timetables and capacity charting, then I would probably have a far better idea of some of his explanations.

But he hasn't, but I'll still take him at his word when he says the logistics do not support an expansion, because of his experience.

As far as cost, I have no idea what the proposed costs might be for an expansion. Tyler estimated 1 billion dollars (ouch). Even if that number dropped by 75%, that's still 250 MILLION dollars (still an ouch). I'll be the first one to agree that a monorail sets a far better image for Disney than a bus. It looks cool. It is cool to ride in. It is cool to think about how fun it must be to pilot one. Even when I see the classic movie "Fahrenhiet 451", and I see the monorail, I think of Disney. Very Cool.

But at what price? The price of a major park addition? The price of pay raises for under paid CM's? The price of park admission going up 50%, or 100%, within just a few years, to cover the cost? To me, that level of cool is not worth that price.

At least, to me.:animwink:

no2apprentice,

You're certainly correct that any action needs to be carefully weighed, and so far I haven't seen any proposals that would make me jump on board. My response was initiated by some posts I had read which seem to only factor cost into their equation.

Many people seem to think that any new system has to show an immediate cost benefit, but the equation is much more complicated than that. As a fan, I put much more weight on "coolness" than cost. As a shareholder I lean a bit more toward cost, but as a savvy shareholder, I realize cool=profit.

I don't think we're in disagreement, but I think some people in Disney's boardroom and some people who post on this board are losing track of what Disney is all about.

Originally posted by GenerationX
Forget the monorail. Forget the buses. What we need are huge slingshots at each resort pointed toward the parks and huge slingshots at each park pointed toward the resorts. We'd need correspondingly large nets at each spot, of course, to catch the guests. We'd also need CMs as "air traffic controllers" to make sure no one collided mid-air. Cheaper than monorail expansion, cheaper than bus maintenance. And fun, too!:animwink:

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That's the best idea I've heard yet! (Man, I wish Tramp were here! ) They could have a station with a hundred or more on both ends and there wouldn’t be a problem with capacity because people are moving in 3 dimensional space. They could shoot them over, under and next to each other!.. It would be fun to watch, too! Sort of like a daytime fireworks display.




… And at night if they lit the people on fire… :fork:

Originally posted by garyhoov
I don't think we're in disagreement, but I think some people in Disney's boardroom and some people who post on this board are losing track of what Disney is all about.

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You hit that nail on the head! All things considered, I can't find too much fault on Disney for not doing anything with the expansion. Maybe if they had the insight to build track all at once for the whole property when it first went in, that could have defrayed some of the initial cost of a future expansion. Of course, I can't help thinking that even the people back in the early '70's had any idea what was going to take place over the next 30 years. It's one thing to put something on paper and think "maybe this will happen", but it's something else when it all happens so successfully.

I agree with yours and other posts about riding the monorail, the "magic" of it, seeing the castle from the monorail, etc. Sometimes words can't describe these feelings for a true Disney fan. Heck, I'm 46, seen and done alot in my life, and I still get a little choked riding that monorail from the TTC to the MK.

All I can hope for is that some other type of transportation can be developed that A) can keep the Disney magic B) be innovative C) compliment the existing monorail system. Until then, you'll find me at the bus stop when I can afford to stay on property. When I'm staying off property, I'll take any color monorail I can get!

Originally posted by garyhoov
I don't think we're in disagreement, but I think some people in Disney's boardroom and some people who post on this board are losing track of what Disney is all about.

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I understand your side of the debate, along with all the others who feel that "coolness" is the way to go. But, as I've just posted, I'd pass the coolness for comfort. And this comfort goes hand in hand with the logistics Tyler was talking about.
Personally, I think Disney is more about Guests than about being cool, and that's probably why they try to make everything as simple and comfortable as possible.

Originally posted by MrPromey

… And at night if they lit the people on fire… :fork:

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Anybody wanna take bets on how long it will be before we see a ride like this at IOA or Six Flaggs?:lol:

Re: monorail expansion

Originally posted by freediverdude
I still don't see why my idea wouldn't work. For one thing, at the park exits at MK and Epcot, there would be two different monorail routes for people to get on- not everyone would be trying to get on the same one. And if the tracks were doubled and full-size cars used, since the monorails would only be going to the major parks and DD, each monorail could probably hold 500 people, therefore, as many as 2000 people could get on the monorails at the park exits every 10 minutes or so. (500 per monorail x double track x 2 different directions at MK and Epcot). This would seem to me to be enough to handle a park exit. This could exit at least 12000 people per hour, plus as many as 1/3 would not be getting on the monorail at park exit if their resort was within peoplemover range (i.e. MK resort area or Epcot resort area). I have waited over 45 minutes to get on a bus to Caribbean Beach before, so I don't see how this could be any worse, in fact, much better! Plus no dark cloud of smoke! No environmental worries! Wow factor! Magic! If I knew how, I would draw you guys a map of what it would look like. In response to WDW freak, I don't think having the AK monorail coming from MGM would be any better. It would just make Epcot and MGM the hubs instead of Epcot and MK. And I think MK would make a better hub since that park is busier. Anyway, I still don't see any real problems with this plan, other than it would cost a lot, but any plan is going to cost a lot. Imagine two full-size monorail cars pulling up in front of the Magic Kingdom at the same time, and 1000 people getting on all at once! Now THAT would be impressive transport power!

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Well, the cast members who have weighed in up to this point have said that they don’t have a problem with capacity between parks, that the problem is from resorts to parks. If they set up the system you are suggesting, people would have to make transfers to get to and from their resorts rather than getting on one vehicle and going the whole way, it would create another bottleneck in the system. Regardless of how many people a train can hold, it has to leave the station at some point and conventional logic suggest that the larger a train is, the fewer of them there will be. A train that can hold a thousand people is fine if there are a thousand people standing there waiting to get on it and all thousand can get on and off quickly but that’s not reality. When a train goes out mid-day 3/4ths empty, it’s that much longer you wait for the next one after having gotten off the peoplemover that you also had to wait for (although probably not nearly as long) a lot of people are going to have a problem with such a wait. Disney really does understand how big of an issue this is. As a matter of fact, there is one place that I will mention in my next post where they really, really want guests to transfer on a lightrail… As I said, the environmental issues are still present since most electricity in the US (and just about all electricity in Florida) is generated by fossil fuel power plants and although I can’t back this up, I would guess that the Diesel fuel to wheel system is more energy efficient that the fossil fuel to power plant to monorail line to electric monorail motor is. I realize that the “environmental” issues are probably more of an excuse for a lot of people (but not all) that don’t like the busses but I’d be surprised to find out that the monorail engines in their current form aren’t less fuel efficient that the busses.