News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

rushtest4echo

Well-Known Member
Flynn, sorry about that, but it's at least relevant to the discussion. Are gondolas really able to cope with a certain percentage of the riders being in ECV's?

And monorails are WDW's most inflexible system of transport. Logically, the system should be shut down and ripped out tomorrow. I'm certainly glad that the monorails are around, but when you boil it down to cost and flexibility- the monorails are a nightmare. Much of those issues are self inflicted, but they're still issues that have to be dealt with every day.

Whenever I see people preening over monorail expansion I picture the daily hours worth of downtime we see, and then multiply it by however many more stops/lines/trains that would need to be added. Also factor in ballooning transfer times as more and more guests use the system. There's already a good 20-30 minute wait for MK's express monorail under peak load, so how much worse would that get if twice the number of resorts/parks/guests had access to that line?

Yes, all of this could be addressed by proper upkeep/upgrades/staffing/fleet size, but that's relying on a company that hasn't exactly demonstrated proficiency with those things and monorails outside Tokyo.
 
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flynnibus

Premium Member
Sorry about that, but it's at least relevant to the discussion. Are gondolas really able to cope with a certain percentage of the riders being in ECV's?

Open floors, roll on, roll off, and could offer locking straps/clips if needed. Why do you think it would be a concern? Weight wise it's just one less adult per ECV hit on capacity. Space wise probably 1.5 people.

And don't over complicate the problem.. even today on the buses ECVs are like one per every 30 riders.. the new gondolas do not create new ECVs.
 

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Original Poster
Supposedly, this is the system they are using.

https://www.doppelmayr.com/en/products/3s-gondola-lift/

Each gondola holds 35 passengers.

Moves at 8.5m/sec

Detatchable gondolas for staged loading

10,000ppl/hr (5,000ppl/hour each direction)

Can operate in up to 50mph winds

Based on that speed we would be looking at about 3 1/2 minutes from Epcot IG to the north CBR station, and south CBR station to DHS in 2 1/2 minutes.
 

phi2134

Well-Known Member
I usually stay at the beach club and i absolutely hate the idea of this going over the international gateway. I think its going to look really tacky to me.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
So...wait...you're telling me that a car suspended up in the air by a cable is more flexible and practical than a monorail?

Care to elaborate? Asking purely out of curiosity...

Monorails require a direct, obstructing access path. Cable systems are more varied in how they can go over/under things with more options
Monorail beams don't span great gaps - suspended cables can
Monorails can't change grade very rapidly - cable systems can

Cable systems can pack more vehicles closer - that means you can have smaller vehicles that dispatch quicker
Quicker dispatch = more steady moving of guests through your system, which usually means less waits
Smaller, more agile vehicles means easier to add/remove vehicles from service. Less impact if you need to take one offline/service
Cable systems can allow vehicle passing/non-blocking stations - single beam monorails can not

Suspension Systems are far more economical and practical than rigid support - which is why you see them as popular designs for bridges.

I'm sure you were probably thinking more along the lines of 'fixed path' - they are both fixed path.. but they are not equals.
 

G00fyDad

Well-Known Member
Flynn, sorry about that, but it's at least relevant to the discussion. Are gondolas really able to cope with a certain percentage of the riders being in ECV's?

And monorails are WDW's most inflexible system of transport. Logically, the system should be shut down and ripped out tomorrow. I'm certainly glad that the monorails are around, but when you boil it down to cost and flexibility- the monorails are a nightmare. Much of those issues are self inflicted, but they're still issues that have to be dealt with every day.

Whenever I see people preening over monorail expansion I picture the daily hours worth of downtime we see, and then multiply it by however many more stops/lines/trains that would need to be added. Also factor in ballooning transfer times as more and more guests use the system. There's already a good 20-30 minute wait for MK's express monorail under peak load, so how much worse would that get if twice the number of resorts/parks/guests had access to that line?

Yes, all of this could be addressed by proper upkeep/upgrades/staffing/fleet size, but that's relying on a company that hasn't exactly demonstrated proficiency with those things and monorails outside Tokyo.

Relevant or not people here have shown a complete inability to discuss ECV's with any sense of maturity. Please leave them out of the conversation.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
We don't need to make it any easier for the ECV crowd to get around, do we?

Every time I go to Paris, Hong Kong or Tokyo (or frankly any other big parks outside the US) I'm just flabbergasted at the lack strollers and ECV's clogging up the walkways. The rate of people using those things has got to be 90% lower than usage here in the states.
Personal views are irrelevant. Walt Disney World must comply with the EPCOT Accessibility Code, Florida Accessibility Code and the Americans with Disabilities Act.

So...wait...you're telling me that a car suspended up in the air by a cable is more flexible and practical than a monorail?

Care to elaborate? Asking purely out of curiosity...

And don't get me wrong...this will be great I'm sure...but I wonder if it's more of a band-aid...?
Capcity can be adjusted to meet demand. Loading is also near continuous.
 

MisterPenguin

President of Animal Kingdom
Premium Member
Anyway, I know everyone's getting whipped into a fervor over this, but has anyone thought about how this thing is going to look sticking up behind France?

Please excuse my 2 minute photoshop hack job.

u39e0.jpg
2s19c8o.jpg

There is no need for the gondola lift to be that high or use that many towers so close to each other. The gondolas do not need to be any higher than the current monorail.

Besides, Paris is likely getting a lift system soon.



I'm not sure what exact model Martin had in mind. It could be a smaller model of the one posted, or, one with less occupancy because they don't have middle benches so as to accommodate personal vehicles.


Don't forget ease of rescue in the event of a drive system failure (lightning strike power outage) with a low elevation system extension ladders or bucket trucks could be used to evac

It's unlikely a lightning strike would take out a gondola lift except temporarily. The system is very mechanical. If the electronic controls are fried, then the back up generators can be fired up and the system goes on manual control until everyone is off.



Looking at dan's map (the one on the WDWMagic home page, and buried in the thread), the only real "scare" zone would be the line going to/from DHS, looks like a decent amount of swamp to hover over. I wonder if they'll clear a path and fill in with solid land the areas below the line that are swamp.

Part of the permit which spilled the beans includes a gravel roadway through the swamp/wetland right underneath the path of the gondolas. This would allow an evac vehicle to get underneath any stranded gondola. The height of the gondola doesn't have to be any higher than the monorail. There is no need for any special evac vehicle other than the ones they already have.



Flynn, sorry about that, but it's at least relevant to the discussion. Are gondolas really able to cope with a certain percentage of the riders being in ECV's?

Hopefully, scooters are banned to the alternative mode of transportation. Take the bus, or your car. Problem solved!

There's a video in this thread of someone in a wheelchair easily entering a gondola.

ECVs, wheelchairs, and strollers are a non-issue.
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
Oh gawd, not a Star Wars resort. Please.

Seriously, I very much doubt anything will happen with CBR's theme. It is loved by many Guests who come from cold climates. And while I haven't stayed there in 15 years, I have heard very good things about the recently redone rooms there. Mr. Gets Around aka @WDWFigment had a nice review of them a while ago ...

I found them to be much improved (I described them was Poly-lite), but pretty much the only direction for those rooms to go was up. The previous version looked like clown(fish) barf.

Generally, I think Walt Disney World has done a good job with its recent round of room refurbishments. The goal seems to be balancing theme and quality, and that has meant dialing back the theme a bit. I like the result at Wilderness Lodge and the Poly in particular (although I know not everyone agrees on either), whereas I feel Beach Club and BoardWalk Villas have gone a little too far, and made the rooms too generic.
 

bunnyman

Well-Known Member
As a skier who has used gondolas all over, the issue of loading those with special situations can easily be remedied with detachable cars being set aside for those loading needs. Most gondolas today run as high speed that detach from the cable at the end points as the cars travel around a slower wheel to reattach when either loaded or unloaded. A car set aside on rails nearby can easily be attached/removed from cable as needed. At resorts that have peak restaurants, you’ll see them often attach a cargo car as needed to bring supplies up or trash down, and they easily add these cars on and off the cable without a significant impact to crowd flow. Also, if you’ve ever watched a ski resort at either the end or beginning of the day you’ll see them either loading the cars on the cables or removing them.
 

larryz

I'm Just A Tourist!
Premium Member
Out of curiosity, where did you get that figure? According to the BBC, the London system cost 45 million GBP to build in 2012 (~$72.5 million at that time) and that system was only 1.1 km long (or roughly $106 million per mile). Granted the London system was built over water, built at a MUCH greater height than the WDW system will need to be, and was built in the middle of a major city (all of which would increase costs), but unless there were SEVER cost overruns on the London project, it's hard to imagine a system five years later could be built at 1/10th the cost per mile... then again, like I said, there could have been other factors that substantially increased the cost for the London project...
I'd think you could bring the cost per mile down considerably for each additional mile you put in the system. The big costs are the power drive stations and load stations. Adding more cable and a few more towers/crossarms won't cost nearly as much as the power drives (although longer/more load will require bigger power sources).
 

rushtest4echo

Well-Known Member
Open floors, roll on, roll off, and could offer locking straps/clips if needed. Why do you think it would be a concern? Weight wise it's just one less adult per ECV hit on capacity. Space wise probably 1.5 people.

And don't over complicate the problem.. even today on the buses ECVs are like one per every 30 riders.. the new gondolas do not create new ECVs.

I'm really not trying to drag out the ECV discussion BUT: the need for low floor buses and the space/time occupied by ECV's on said buses has completely crippled WDW's bus system's capacity. A 15 minute route that used to carry 60 people now carries 50 and takes 20 minutes. 33% longer route + 17% reduced capacity. A route that used to have 4 buses now probably needs 6 for the same throughput (except that capacity probably hasn't been added, people just end up waiting that much longer).

If this system can help alleviate that issue on these routes, that's another efficiency gain with this system vs buses.
 

Daddyoh

Active Member
This has been discussed in other threads but it is time for it to have it's own thread.

Recent permits related to Caribbean Beach Resort and DHS seem to indicate that a new transportation system between CBR, DHS, Epcot and possible AOA might be in the works.

The CBR permit showed these two new structures which by themselves don't look to interesting.

View attachment 189658

A DHS permit this week shows two more new structure around DHS, as well as a construction access road which is not shown here.

View attachment 189659

The shapes, location, and orientation of these structure form a interesting pattern that may not be coincidental. Thanks to @P_Radden for this map.

Based on this information a gondola/skyride system of some sort looks like a possibility.

View attachment 189660
 

Sachilles

Member
Maintenance would be on going/constant. Unsure what the regs in florida are by for the ski industry in Vermont, the grips on the lift vehicles must meet destructive testing requirement every three years, which is a bit of time suck. However, with enough cars, you can cycle this testing through with little impact to operation. Ski resorts don't usually have every lift running during the summer, so it's easier to accomplish this during the off season.
You have to deal with alignment constantly as part of your maint regime. A lift tech climbs the tower and adjust the wheels on the tower to make sure they are still in alignment. Any recent lift accidents in the US, this alignment step was found to be lacking. I'm certain Disney would be diligent on this. Reason for alignment changes, is that the bases can move over time, so the tower then moves. There is a fairly forgiving margin of error, but not the less the better you are at it, the for efficient(saving money) and safer it is. So even if you question the safety motive, we know Disney will want to operate it the most efficiently it can.
 

Rodan75

Well-Known Member
I'm really not trying to drag out the ECV discussion BUT: the need for low floor buses and the space/time occupied by ECV's on said buses has completely crippled WDW's bus system's capacity. A 15 minute route that used to carry 60 people now carries 50 and takes 20 minutes. 33% longer route + 17% reduced capacity. A route that used to have 4 buses now probably needs 6 for the same throughput (except that capacity probably hasn't been added, people just end up waiting that much longer).

If this system can help alleviate that issue on these routes, that's another efficiency gain with this system vs buses.

The video posted of the Breck Connect system pretty much alleviated the mobility concern for me although I suspect that we will end up with lots of 8-10-20 person gondolas with only 3 people on them, as folks won't fold up strollers. But again, watching the Breck Connect video, this thing could move like an omnimover and that wouldn't be a huge concern.

And if they have an ability separately load passengers who couldn't get on a rotating platform or who need extra assistance to load and queue up that gondola getting back on the line, this looks like the best possible solution.
 

rushtest4echo

Well-Known Member
Another maintenance thing to consider:

Monorails have multiple drive motors and even more moving parts/brake systems in addition to suspension and the door hardware. Then there's the electrical lines which need cleaning and maintenance. Tons of upkeep be car, per train, per line. Gondolas usually have 2 or 3 traction/drive motors and accompanying suspension/tension systems and that's it. Everything (except for air conditioning) on the cars and the doors are usually manual or at least not motor driven. Of course there are upkeep and maintenance costs and parts will fail on both systems and I'm not expert on either one of these systems, but one has to assume that upkeep for gondolas is a fraction of the cost of the monorail.

Monorail has a door problem: let it sit on the platform and clog up the line for 20 minutes while they wait for maintenance to fix it. Then if they can't, wait another 10-15 minutes for them to pull the train form service.
Gondola has a door problem: move to maintenance spur in about 15 seconds, go back to normal operation.
Monorail has a drive motor problem: shut down the line, get out the tug, drag the train through multiple track switches back to the roundhouse. Takes an hour or more and usually results in multiple lines being down.
Gondola has a drive motor problem: turn on the back up motor and continue operation.
Monorail loses power for a sustained period: evacuate, news helicopters, hours of headaches.
Gondola loses power: Redundant generator takes over and everyone's off in 15 minutes.

It's not always that cut and dry, but you can see the difference pretty easily.
 
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bunnyman

Well-Known Member
I'm really not trying to drag out the ECV discussion BUT: the need for low floor buses and the space/time occupied by ECV's on said buses has completely crippled WDW's bus system's capacity. A 15 minute route that used to carry 60 people now carries 50 and takes 20 minutes. 33% longer route + 17% reduced capacity. A route that used to have 4 buses now probably needs 6 for the same throughput (except that capacity probably hasn't been added, people just end up waiting that much longer).

If this system can help alleviate that issue on these routes, that's another efficiency gain with this system vs buses.

If anyone has ever been to DL, for Space Mountain they have a separate "train" set aside to load with those with special needs. Rather than try and accommodate everyone on the main line, they have a separate special needs line that once they have enough to load the extra train, that train is inserted into the system (we experienced this system first hand). As I pointed out above, accommodating special needs or ECV situations is easily remedied with “on demand” gondola cars set aside that can be added to the system as needed. This way a car can be loaded at the leisure of the those being loaded and the line keeps moving; once the extra car is ready it can easily be added to the cable with minimal downtime for the whole line.
 

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