Pin Trading Etiquette

[thomas998]

No I didn't cherry pick. I addressed the fundamental point the rest derived from. I don't need to repeat myself debunking things line by line when you cut things off at the foundation. But since logical progression needs to be called out I guess... let's do it the long way.

The $2 pin cited was not a $20 pin... so trying to compare the $20 price to determine the actual discount seen of the pin selling at $2 is completely irrelevant. Just because I see pinA being sold at $2 does not mean I will see the $20 pinB being sold at $2 as well (your logical fallacy). So the discount of 2/20 has no bearing on anything. The $20 price means absolutely nothing at all.. unless you are citing what the asking price of the $20 pin was... which.. was not even part of the discussion. So stop trying to bring in OTHER prices of unrelated products are to compute the discount of other.

Your point is like trying to counter what the normal discount when buying a honda car is... by comparing someone's buying price of a honda... with the retail price of a Toyota Truck. They are both cars, they both are discounted... but you don't compute the discount of the honda by comparing it to the list price of the Toyota.

Happy now??

You did cherry pick. Just as you have cherry picked your own interpretation of 18 U.S. Code § 2320 - Trafficking in counterfeit goods or services, that you reference in an early post to imply that people that are trading pins that happen to be counterfeit are guilty of some federal crime. The key bit in that legal bit you referenced but appeared to not actually read or understand is listed below:

(a)Offenses.— Whoever intentionally—
(1) traffics in goods or services and knowingly uses a counterfeit mark on or in connection with such goods or services,
(2) traffics in labels, patches, stickers, wrappers, badges, emblems, medallions, charms, boxes, containers, cans, cases, hangtags, documentation, or packaging of any type or nature, knowing that a counterfeit mark has been applied thereto, the use of which is likely to cause confusion, to cause mistake, or to deceive,
(3) traffics in goods or services knowing that such good or service is a counterfeit military good or service the use, malfunction, or failure of which is likely to cause serious bodily injury or death, the disclosure of classified information, impairment of combat operations, or other significant harm to a combat operation, a member of the Armed Forces, or to national security, or
(4) traffics in a counterfeit drug,

Because pins are not military goods or drugs you can ignore the last two offenses... but the first two are very clear. The trader would have to KNOW they had a bogus pin... suspecting it might not be real wouldn't be knowing, so even if you weren't sure you would still be safe. The only way this law would remotely apply is if you were making pins and putting Disney marks on them or you were told when you bought them that they were fake... Knowing is the key bit you ignored in that bit of cherry picking to suit your argument.

As for the last bit of rambling about not cherry picking and your rather convoluted bit on 20 dollar pins... well I have no idea what you were trying to say. Nor do I really care to try and figure it out. I simply can't let you spread half truths about what is legal and illegal that could result in some people stopping their kids from having fun trading pins because they wrongly believe that if they mistakenly trade a fake pin that the FBI is going to swoop down and whisk them away.

 

[flynnibus]

You did cherry pick. Just as you have cherry picked your own interpretation of 18 U.S. Code § 2320

Well since you couldn't actually counter the post - now you switch topics to the legality point instead of your actual post about pins sold at discount breaking someone's own guidelines.. which is what every post from you with me has been abo

But since you switched to the legality point.. no I didn't cherry pick, I was full aware of the requirement of 'knowing' its counterfeit - It's only been the subject of NUMEROUS posts (including from me) on Page 1-3 of this thread that predated my post citing the law. Again, I didn't lay it out line by line because I assumed when we are talking about the common sense of 'too good to be true' - someone reading along can make the connection that we are talking about the topic of 'knowing' the item is counterfeit. My posts are long enough as it is.. I don't need to outline it all point by point when its something that shouldn't need confirmation.

But since you prefer the long way.. again here is the relevant line from my post

By willfully turning a blind eye to the 'too good to be true' goods[...]

Sorry you couldn't connect that train of thought to the 2 pages of illustrations before that post highlighting that just because someone SAYS it's authentic, it's not plausible deniability. But now you know...

Because pins are not military goods or drugs you can ignore the last two offenses... but the first two are very clear. The trader would have to KNOW they had a bogus pin... suspecting it might not be real wouldn't be knowing, so even if you weren't sure you would still be safe

Welcome back to page 1-3 of the thread. "The auction says it was real..." and putting your head in the sand about every other facet is not a defendable position to say 'I believe it was genuine'. Nevermind all the follow-up posts that basically outlined knowing they were likely fake, but simply saying "I don't care".

Is there anything else you would like a refresher on.. before saying I'm cherry picking points that you simply missed?

I simply can't let you spread half truths about what is legal and illegal that could result in some people stopping their kids from having fun trading pins because they wrongly believe that if they mistakenly trade a fake pin that the FBI is going to swoop down and whisk them away.

Nice strawman. I said nothing of the sort.. and if someone actually pursues or prosecutes someone is irrelevant to the point of if it's actually legal or ethical. Just like 'the cops didn't pull me over' doesn't make Speeding any less illegal by definition.

It's sad to see people raising their kids with the mindset of 'what you can get away with' vs actually teaching morality or ethics.

 

[Bairstow]

If you buy pins off of eBay, just be aware of the consequences.

 

[thomas998]

Well since you couldn't actually counter the post - now you switch topics to the legality point instead of your actual post about pins sold at discount breaking someone's own guidelines.. which is what every post from you with me has been abo

But since you switched to the legality point.. no I didn't cherry pick, I was full aware of the requirement of 'knowing' its counterfeit - It's only been the subject of NUMEROUS posts (including from me) on Page 1-3 of this thread that predated my post citing the law. Again, I didn't lay it out line by line because I assumed when we are talking about the common sense of 'too good to be true' - someone reading along can make the connection that we are talking about the topic of 'knowing' the item is counterfeit. My posts are long enough as it is.. I don't need to outline it all point by point when its something that shouldn't need confirmation.

But since you prefer the long way.. again here is the relevant line from my post



Sorry you couldn't connect that train of thought to the 2 pages of illustrations before that post highlighting that just because someone SAYS it's authentic, it's not plausible deniability. But now you know...



Welcome back to page 1-3 of the thread. "The auction says it was real..." and putting your head in the sand about every other facet is not a defendable position to say 'I believe it was genuine'. Nevermind all the follow-up posts that basically outlined knowing they were likely fake, but simply saying "I don't care".

Is there anything else you would like a refresher on.. before saying I'm cherry picking points that you simply missed?



Nice strawman. I said nothing of the sort.. and if someone actually pursues or prosecutes someone is irrelevant to the point of if it's actually legal or ethical. Just like 'the cops didn't pull me over' doesn't make Speeding any less illegal by definition.

It's sad to see people raising their kids with the mindset of 'what you can get away with' vs actually teaching morality or ethics.

Let me save us both some time. You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm not going to waste my time showing you where you are wrong nor am I going to waste any more time trying to make sense of your convoluted logic. So hopefully we can simply agree that we disagree.

 

[thomas998]

If you buy pins off of eBay, just be aware of the consequences.

So you're telling me that having fake pins will actually make its a small world fun to ride? Well find me a dark alley and a shifty seller I need to get some for the whole family now.

 

[BigRedDad]

In honor of this thread, I just purchased 50 pins for my daughter to trade off eBay. I paid $22 for them. I feel a little better because of the premium I pay to stay onsite. If you are there July 10-17 and behind my daughter trading pins, WDW will make the choice as to whether her pins are real or fake...because "..the trading Cast Member shall make the final determination."

Straight from WDW Pin Trading Ettiquette site...

The main criteria to judge whether a pin is tradable or not is that it must be a metal pin bearing a “©Disney”mark on the back that represents a Disney Event, Place or Location, Character or Icon. CHECK!

Pins should be in good, undamaged, tradable condition. Check!

My eBay pins meet this criteria.

 

[jloucks]

Lots of people way over-complicating things here.

There is right and wrong and this is pretty clear...

Let's break it down into factoids...

1) Counterfeit pins are wrong/illegal (unless #7 is true)

2) Kids don't care - see #1 ....or #7

3) Sharks Care - see #1

4) Traders Care - see #1

5) Bulk buyers from ebay don't care - see #1

6) Bulk buyers assume their 100 count lot for $10 is legit. IQ level = low. See #1

7) Disney doesn't care. Ah! This one is where it gets interesting! If Disney doesn't care then it can be assumed the fakes are in fact legitimate. Disney can make whatever they want legit as they dictate was is or is not legitimate as it is their intellectual property we are talking about. The fact that they intentionally don't crack down, or even make a policy on the matter/ infers they don't care. They could declare my old underpants legit, if they wanted. They are more about #2 than 1,3,4,5,6.

8) based on #4, #1 is valid regardless of #7. Wait. Wut? Let me explain. The fact that you are intentionally hurting another human being on purpose is wrong. This is a concept alien to WAY too many people on this planet. How would you feel if you FINALLY found, after a decade of searching, the one pin you were always seeking only to find out it was a fake?! This one requires empathy, another trait sorely lacking in many.


...or you could just follow the platinum rule --> Treat others as they wan't to be treated.

 

[draybook]

Lots of people way over-complicating things here.

There is right and wrong and this is pretty clear...

Let's break it down into factoids...

1) Counterfeit pins are wrong/illegal (unless #7 is true)

2) Kids don't care - see #1 ....or #7

3) Sharks Care - see #1

4) Traders Care - see #1

5) Bulk buyers from ebay don't care - see #1

6) Bulk buyers assume their 100 count lot for $10 is legit. IQ level = low. See #1

7) Disney doesn't care. Ah! This one is where it gets interesting! If Disney doesn't care then it can be assumed the fakes are in fact legitimate. Disney can make whatever they want legit as they dictate was is or is not legitimate as it is their intellectual property we are talking about. The fact that they intentionally don't crack down, or even make a policy on the matter/ infers they don't care. They could declare my old underpants legit, if they wanted. They are more about #2 than 1,3,4,5,6.

8) based on #4, #1 is valid regardless of #7. Wait. Wut? Let me explain. The fact that you are intentionally hurting another human being on purpose is wrong. This is a concept alien to WAY too many people on this planet. How would you feel if you FINALLY found, after a decade of searching, the one pin you were always seeking only to find out it was a fake?! This one requires empathy, another trait sorely lacking in many.


...or you could just follow the platinum rule --> Treat others as they wan't to be treated.

Actually, my IQ is way above average. And before you insult other people's intelligence level then you should fix that *want at the end of your post.

But seriously, I'm done arguing with people on this forum. It's much easier to just ignore the ones that just want to argue and insult.

 

[flynnibus]

Just because you don't see Disney not doing things doesn't mean Disney doesn't care. There is a balance here of customer service and the risk of ing customers off because of innocence getting caught in the web.
I think the only conclusion you can draw is that the problem is not big enough to hurt Disney's pin sales in a grand enough way to cause them to mandate change.

Every popular company has to deal with counterfeits or unauthorized production of their products it's just comes with the territory.