Soarin' Expansion and new Soarin' Around the World film

[Goofyernmost]

There's only so many rides. Of course they'd run at capacity. Add in more rides, maybe better rides, and then we'd see. I don't think Test Track and Mission: Space are all that spectacular, to be honest. Spaceship Earth gets my repeat visits. I can't say the same about the rest. I honestly don't even remember the last time I went on Ellen's Energy Adventure or Figment. People ride them because they're there. And it's not me knocking them, people do love them, but I think Epcot is lacking more than some want to admit. Just because it makes money doesn't mean the park doesn't need a lot of help. I also think Soarin', while fun, doesn't exactly inspire repeat visits. I've ridden it once at Epcot and once at California Adventure. Twice. But again, that's me. People love it. But a lot of the Epcot rides, IMHO, are overrated. And that's not me trying to 'live in the past' with Epcot, but I think the park, again, needs more help and it's really not that far off from the needs of Animal Kingdom and ESPECIALLY DHS needs the help the most. So yes, Epcot ISN'T a priority, but it's another case of the parks being ignored for so long that it's becoming tired. I know Dave and others insist it doesn't, but the park needs help.

I tend to agree with a lot of what you have said, but, you cannot put your personal likes or dislikes in as what everyone thinks. I think, for example, that Soarin has proven it's repeat ride-ability over and over. I know some people from Vermont that drive to WDW 4 times a year and all they talk about is that they can't wait to ride Soarin again. I also think that the length of the line and the fact that they are building another theater speaks volumes toward that also. Ellen's is questionable, but the length of it keeps a lot of people off the paths for a very long time. SSE, is and always will be a staple, but, at the end of their life, just from my observation, Horizons, WoM and Imagination were almost all walk on's. That wasn't the case in the beginning. A lot of us got the old, you don't miss things until they are gone syndrome. What replaced them were not as entertaining so we then decided that those others were wrongly taken out. WoL was almost empty most of the time before they closed it. It wasn't the closing that is the problem, it is the fact that they didn't replace it with anything. And they easily could have.

Test Track is just a fun ride regardless of what version you talk about, but really it is all about the high speed loop outside that draws people in. The rest was just something to do until you got to that part. The problem with the theory that they ignored them so they became tired. It seems to me that during the time that they put all the new, not widely adored, stuff in (or in other words, the stuff we have now) it was being done because the originals were tired. So they changed them and then we didn't like that either. M:S got a very bad start up rap because of the people that died on it. (Two if I remember correctly, in very short order), that kept people away for a very long time, but, that seems to be turning around and I find it to be a fun ride, Green or Orange!

However, the enormity of Epcot, is important in determining that it doesn't need change anywhere close to the other two. (with the exception of Imagination, of course)

 

[Goofyernmost]

SSE, Nemo, LWTL and Grand Fiesta are all pretty high capacity rides, no? Energy too for that matter, I think.

Yes, but with the exception of SSE, they are not attractions that are a must see for most people. LWTL is now mostly revitalized because it is something to do while you wait for your FP+ window to open to ride Soarin. When Land first opened, the line for LWTL was always full switchback capacity, then for a very long time before Soarin, it was almost empty and always a walk-on. I think that Grand Fiesta is about the same now as it was before the added Donald and Friends, but, at least, they stayed true to the Mexican Theme. Nemo, what can I say. I'm glad it's there, but, my heart wouldn't break to skip it.

 

[ChrisM]

Do you have a link? Also, what's being poured? I didn't quite get that.

A 40 ounce for our dead homies (and/or attractions).

 

[GoofGoof]

we will see... i say that it will not change because i see people just turn around whan they see the queue, and not come back. so with people that want to see it with two screens turning away and not waiting, those people will be more encouraged to actually stop and wait for a screen instead of finding something else to do. same problem with increasing capacity with TSMM. likely no decrease in wait times(on the whole).

Good point. The total number of independent rides will definitely increase. But, demand will also probably increase as wait times drop. If standby waits got down to the 20 min point you will probably see a sharp increase in repeat riders. I'm guessing not many people now wait 60+ min for a 2nd ride but they might for under 30 mins. There will also be an increase in FP+ capacity taking some bodies from the standby line and moving them over to the fastpass line. I think on less crowded days it could become almost a walk on at times with waits still over 60mins on the super peak days.

The x factor will be if a new movie comes with the expansion. A new movie could increase demand (at least temporally) enough to offset the added capacity

Another good point. The new movie will likely increase demand temporarily (with WDW that could mean upwards of a year or more based on people's vacation schedules). There are probably some repeat visitors who skip Soarin now since they have done it so many times, but will want to see the new film. Same day repeat riders may increase too because of that. Unlike TSMM the Soarin project is the only new thing coming to EPCOT for a while (other than Frozen Maelstrom) so it will be the go to thing for a lot of repeat visitors. If DHS gets it's rebuild TSMM may fall to the middle of the pack in popularity.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

reality check... the wait times will not go down when they open a third screen. more people will be able to see the attraction, but it will still sell out of FP weeks before the day. and the queue will be lengthened(more than likely) to hold 1/3 more capacity. so no tier changes, no standby time reduction.

It is possible that they will do to SOarin what Spirited said was happening to TSMM, one side fp+ only , one stand-by... Using the third Soarin' theater for fp+ only and original theaters for stand by only?

 

[dstrawn9889]

it really does not matter either way, in my eye at least, if they doe go one or even two screens FP only, they will increase FP availability to fill them up daily... net no change.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

it really does not matter either way, in my eye at least, if they doe go one or even two screens FP only, they will increase FP availability to fill them up daily... net no change.

If you were to completely remove fp+ users from Soarin the wait would be cut significantly. So by adding another theater just for fp+ the wait of stand-by would indeed drop.

 

[lobelia]

Don't mess with Energy. That's the best place to take a mid-day nap. Dark, long benches, air conditioned, and long enough to really zonk out. I haven't made it all the way through the ride without a nap in the last two times I rode the ride.

 

[doctornick]

Yes, but with the exception of SSE, they are not attractions that are a must see for most people. LWTL is now mostly revitalized because it is something to do while you wait for your FP+ window to open to ride Soarin. When Land first opened, the line for LWTL was always full switchback capacity, then for a very long time before Soarin, it was almost empty and always a walk-on. I think that Grand Fiesta is about the same now as it was before the added Donald and Friends, but, at least, they stayed true to the Mexican Theme. Nemo, what can I say. I'm glad it's there, but, my heart wouldn't break to skip it.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but the complaint was that Epcot lacked high capacity "people eaters" -- but it doesn't. It has a decent number of such rides; a biggest is, as you note, how popular those rides are and how many people are going on them. Making a blank statement like "Epcot needs people eaters" (as the previous poster did) doesn't make much sense in the context of what the park actually has.

 

[doctornick]

Good point. The total number of independent rides will definitely increase. But, demand will also probably increase as wait times drop. If standby waits got down to the 20 min point you will probably see a sharp increase in repeat riders. I'm guessing not many people now wait 60+ min for a 2nd ride but they might for under 30 mins. There will also be an increase in FP+ capacity taking some bodies from the standby line and moving them over to the fastpass line. I think on less crowded days it could become almost a walk on at times with waits still over 60mins on the super peak days.

I would agree. I think the waits would decrease and stabilize in the 20-45 min range on "typical" days. Once it gets less than 30 min, you'll see people re-ride more, which would keep the wait time above that threshold. I think it's pretty undeniable that adding a third theater would help decrease standby times -- we are talking about adding 50% capacity.

 

[Kman101]

I tend to agree with a lot of what you have said, but, you cannot put your personal likes or dislikes in as what everyone thinks. I think, for example, that Soarin has proven it's repeat ride-ability over and over. I know some people from Vermont that drive to WDW 4 times a year and all they talk about is that they can't wait to ride Soarin again. I also think that the length of the line and the fact that they are building another theater speaks volumes toward that also. Ellen's is questionable, but the length of it keeps a lot of people off the paths for a very long time. SSE, is and always will be a staple, but, at the end of their life, just from my observation, Horizons, WoM and Imagination were almost all walk on's. That wasn't the case in the beginning. A lot of us got the old, you don't miss things until they are gone syndrome. What replaced them were not as entertaining so we then decided that those others were wrongly taken out. WoL was almost empty most of the time before they closed it. It wasn't the closing that is the problem, it is the fact that they didn't replace it with anything. And they easily could have.

Test Track is just a fun ride regardless of what version you talk about, but really it is all about the high speed loop outside that draws people in. The rest was just something to do until you got to that part. The problem with the theory that they ignored them so they became tired. It seems to me that during the time that they put all the new, not widely adored, stuff in (or in other words, the stuff we have now) it was being done because the originals were tired. So they changed them and then we didn't like that either. M:S got a very bad start up rap because of the people that died on it. (Two if I remember correctly, in very short order), that kept people away for a very long time, but, that seems to be turning around and I find it to be a fun ride, Green or Orange!

However, the enormity of Epcot, is important in determining that it doesn't need change anywhere close to the other two. (with the exception of Imagination, of course)

I personally don't have nostalgia ties at all to Horizons, World of Motion, original Imagination, but I do appreciate them for what they were and what they could have still been.

I did put in there it was my opinion and I know people like the rides I personally don't love at Epcot, but to have it be called the festival park and drunkytown doesn't exactly tell me that people are going there because Mission Space, Test Track, etc. are incredible experiences. I think Test Track is fun. I enjoy it. It didn't really need the update it received, IMO. Soarin', yeah, it's popular but look at the wait time at DCA. It's not exactly bringing in the people. Why? Because there are more immersive and interesting things to do there. I'd argue the same with Epcot.

My thing with Epcot is they're using the festivals as an excuse not to do anything with the park. IMO. That's how it comes across and it shows. The paint scheme was laughable, they couldn't finish Spaceship Earth's refurb, Energy has sat virtually untouched for nearly 20 years, Imagination had a horrible makeover, Mission Space could be so much more ... yes it's all personal opinion but I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can be. They can expand World Showcase, they can really wow you with Future World but they aren't. That to me is a problem. And adding Frozen speaks to what they think about the park. It's lipstick on a pig at the end of the day. Sure people will ride it, Frozen fans will get all a flutter over it like it's the best thing ever, but it's not really solving any true problems at the park. I stand behind my views that the park needs help too. IMO, Animal Kingdom doesn't need as much help. It needs fleshing out, and Dinoland's carnival area downgrades it a bit, but I really don't buy it when people crow about how it needs as much help as Disney's Hollywood Studios. Again, a lot of it is personal opinion but I also form my opinions on what I hear, what I see ... Epcot has zero vision. DHS has zero vision. Animal Kingdom clearly has a vision and it sticks to it. One can argue Pandora all they want but it fits their vision. I'm rambling now ...

I personally am seeing a lot of lackluster reactions to Epcot and it saddens me because I do love the park. I think there's just massive wasted potential. I mean, sure it's a "thing" to drink around the world, but when that's the most I'm seeing so many taking away from the park, it makes me worry truly how the park is viewed. Future World is, IMO, a sad mess.

 

[GoofGoof]

I would agree. I think the waits would decrease and stabilize in the 20-45 min range on "typical" days. Once it gets less than 30 min, you'll see people re-ride more, which would keep the wait time above that threshold. I think it's pretty undeniable that adding a third theater would help decrease standby times -- we are talking about adding 50% capacity.

The only variable that I can't guarantee is the amount of added capacity shifted to FP+. In an extreme example if everything else is held constant and the entire 3rd theater was devoted to FP+ you wouldn't increase standby capacity at all. However, you would have to assume that at least some of the people who would have waited in the standby line are now shifting to FP since there would be an additional 800 riders per hour in the FP system. The standby supply wouldn't change, but demand would go down reducing the wait time at least a little.

On the other extreme if they kept everything constant and added the entire 3rd theater to standby it would create an increase in capacity of 800 riders per hour standby. That would be enough to clear the standby line completely and make it a walk on most days. FP demand would decrease too if standby waits dropped that much...like SSE.

I'm guessing that the actual FP allocation will be somewhere in the middle. Either way it should have a positive impact on FP availability and on standby waits.

On very busy days when the crowds are massive the ride will just be overwhelmed even with all of the added capacity. The ride capacity running at optimal levels would still only accommodate 29,000 guests in a 12 hour day. If you believe the TEA reports the average daily attendance at EPCOT is around 30,000 guests per day. That includes those showing up just for lunch/dinner and guests who can't ride Soarin (too short, health issues, motion sickness, etc...). Many people here believe the TEA reports overstate attendance, but they are a conservative estimate. So any day that is at or below the average will have more than enough capacity for everyone to at least ride once. They could in theory offer everyone a chance to make a FP reservation and still have capacity left to accommodate repeat rides. On above average crowd days the standby wait should in theory increase to the point of driving out people who no longer think the ride is worth the wait. Some will opt for booking a FP later in the day and others will just skip the ride.

 

[GhostHost1000]

If you were to completely remove fp+ users from Soarin the wait would be cut significantly. So by adding another theater just for fp+ the wait of stand-by would indeed drop.

stand by might drop because everyone is now in the same line but those using FP+ today to get through the line quicker would be waiting much longer. it's a trade off indeed

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

stand by might drop because everyone is now in the same line but those using FP+ today to get through the line quicker would be waiting much longer. it's a trade off indeed

wasn't the point of fp+ was to bring down stand by times? So wouldn't doing that would indeed do the intended job of the system, even if it means people with fp+ have to wait a few minutes longer?

 

[Goofyernmost]

I personally don't have nostalgia ties at all to Horizons, World of Motion, original Imagination, but I do appreciate them for what they were and what they could have still been.

I did put in there it was my opinion and I know people like the rides I personally don't love at Epcot, but to have it be called the festival park and drunkytown doesn't exactly tell me that people are going there because Mission Space, Test Track, etc. are incredible experiences. I think Test Track is fun. I enjoy it. It didn't really need the update it received, IMO. Soarin', yeah, it's popular but look at the wait time at DCA. It's not exactly bringing in the people. Why? Because there are more immersive and interesting things to do there. I'd argue the same with Epcot.

My thing with Epcot is they're using the festivals as an excuse not to do anything with the park. IMO. That's how it comes across and it shows. The paint scheme was laughable, they couldn't finish Spaceship Earth's refurb, Energy has sat virtually untouched for nearly 20 years, Imagination had a horrible makeover, Mission Space could be so much more ... yes it's all personal opinion but I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can be. They can expand World Showcase, they can really wow you with Future World but they aren't. That to me is a problem. And adding Frozen speaks to what they think about the park. It's lipstick on a pig at the end of the day. Sure people will ride it, Frozen fans will get all a flutter over it like it's the best thing ever, but it's not really solving any true problems at the park. I stand behind my views that the park needs help too. IMO, Animal Kingdom doesn't need as much help. It needs fleshing out, and Dinoland's carnival area downgrades it a bit, but I really don't buy it when people crow about how it needs as much help as Disney's Hollywood Studios. Again, a lot of it is personal opinion but I also form my opinions on what I hear, what I see ... Epcot has zero vision. DHS has zero vision. Animal Kingdom clearly has a vision and it sticks to it. One can argue Pandora all they want but it fits their vision. I'm rambling now ...

I personally am seeing a lot of lackluster reactions to Epcot and it saddens me because I do love the park. I think there's just massive wasted potential. I mean, sure it's a "thing" to drink around the world, but when that's the most I'm seeing so many taking away from the park, it makes me worry truly how the park is viewed. Future World is, IMO, a sad mess.

Again I don't disagree with what you are saying for the most part and I share a lot of your concerns...

to have it be called the festival park and drunkytown doesn't exactly tell me that people are going there because Mission Space, Test Track, etc. are incredible experiences

I have also heard that a lot. I think a lot of it is like when Mark Twain was reported in an obituary as having passed away his reply was... "The report of my death has been greatly exaggerated". That's not to say that it isn't happening and it shouldn't be happening, it's just that I think that like everything else on these boards it is magnified far beyond it's reality.

sure it's a "thing" to drink around the world, but when that's the most I'm seeing so many taking away from the park

I have never been a tea teetotaler and I don't really care if people drink, however, every time I hear or see the phrase "drink around the world" I cringe a little (actually a lot). I have had many an evening under the influence, but, the idea of doing so in a family theme park completely makes me want to gag. There is a place and a time for everything. Making a game out of alcohol consumption in a place that we all like to think of as magical, is NOT that time or that place. I know many will disagree with me, but, that is how I feel about it. Just selling alcohol in MK took a big chunk of the magic away for me.

they couldn't finish Spaceship Earth's refurb

That is another thing that always makes me shake my head when I hear it. As far as they are concerned the ending came out exactly the way they planned it. They didn't put in thousands of dollars of electronics in the ride vehicles so you could ignore it and look at the surrounding area. Now the ending may not be everyone's cup of tea, but, it is a viable ending and it is one that punctuates the advancement of communications and computer abilities that the attraction is talking about. They take your picture on the way in, ask you a couple of questions and then make you part of the ride as you fall backwards seemingly over a cliff. Then as you leave you see your smiling face on a giant screen for the whole room to see and it was all done without direct human intervention. Sometimes I think that people get so caught up in being armchair imagineers that they fail to see what is being conveyed. They complain about screens and yet are upset because the took them out of the SSE ending, which, btw, is what 90% of the downward show was.

Animal Kingdom doesn't need as much help. It needs fleshing out

That is very true, but, the words "fleshing out" and the words "the park needs help" are actually exactly the same thing. DHS needs help in the form of fleshing it out, as does Epcot. However, DHS has become almost terminal because way to many of it's vital organs have been removed without a transplant. DAK needs Pandora as a flesh out, not because what was there wasn't good, it was just that there wasn't enough good stuff there. Epcot needs some help as well, mostly in the Imagination Pavilion, but, any upgrade will be helpful. But not anywhere near as essential as the other two. There is still a ton of things to do in Epcot. As many times as I have been there it is still a two day commitment to see it all.

 

[GoofGoof]

wasn't the point of fp+ was to bring down stand by times? So wouldn't doing that would indeed do the intended job of the system, even if it means people with fp+ have to wait a few minutes longer?

I don't think the point of FP+ was to bring down standby times. It definitely increases them because according to Disney more people are using the system than regular FP. The overall time spent waiting in line should decrease for some guests (those who never used the old system) and increase it for others. According to Disney, the point of FP+ is that you can prioritize the rides you don't want to miss and reserve a time before you even leave home. They don't advertise that you will be waiting in slightly longer standby lines on every other attraction since other guests picked those rides for their FP+ reservation.

A perfect example is a ride like HM. Before FP+ the line rarely exceeded 20 minutes. For argument's sake lets say that standby wait is now 5 to 10 minutes longer on average. For those guests that selected HM for FP+ their wait is nothing. It averages to the same number of riders per hour (no change to ride capacity) In isolation 5 to 10 minutes seems pretty small, but when you ride 15 rides at MK in the standby line that's up to 150 extra minutes in line or 2 1/2 hours. You will have your 3+ rides with FP with no wait, but unless you pick the right FP reservations your overall wait time will be longer. This is less problematic at a park like AK or DHS where there are far fewer rides. Even if EE standby is up 5 to 10 minutes that's not a big deal since most of the other rides don't have long waits anyway.

 

[Andsome]

My brother just came back from the World and he told me that Soarin's film was looking pretty shabby. Pretty sad to hear, seeing as we were lucky enough to ride it before its official opening. Even if they are still developing a new film for the ride, they should at least put in some fresh prints of the current one.

 

[dstrawn9889]

it is probably not only the prints but the light source and the optics as well...

 

[marni1971]

That is another thing that always makes me shake my head when I hear it. As far as they are concerned the ending came out exactly the way they planned it.

It did not. Don't make excuses for them.

 

[marni1971]

Don't mess with Energy.

Please DO mess with Energy. Make it worth riding again and staying awake for.