Frozen ride replacing Maelstrom?

[Lucky]

It's not hard to understand why countries have less interest in Epcot now than when it was new. The premise that attractions would be educational as well as entertaining has pretty much disappeared.

 

[Bolt]

It's not hard to understand why countries have less interest in Epcot now than when it was new. The premise that attractions would be educational as well as entertaining has pretty much disappeared.

It's a shame so many parents these days don't put any stock in educational attractions anymore. The 'I must ride rides all day and always have something interactive in my face' mentality scares me of what the future is like. Call me crazy, but even a simple Circle Vision entertains me.

 

[RSoxNo1]

This news is a few weeks old.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I know this has been debated for months now but I have to wonder what exactly Disney "promised" the country of Norway as far as "updating and maintain the pavilion as a promotional platform for the country -- instead of the hit movie"? Knowing Disney, would they just take all those props out of the church and say "O.K. there are no references to Frozen, thanks for the 9 mil"?

Also, I feel Disney should make that offer to the other 10 countries as well. I would love to see some updates to the Japan pavilion!

How do you know they didn't?

As for the 9million, that was for updating and continued maintenance. If Norway wants the *NORWAY* Pavilion to continue to be a platform for *NORWAY*, they should be willing to contribute to the costs.

I hope the rumor of Frozen in Norway is just that, a rumor.

AKK

 

[NMBC1993]

It's a shame so many parents these days don't put any stock in educational attractions anymore. The 'I must ride rides all day and always have something interactive in my face' mentality scares me of what the future is like. Call me crazy, but even a simple Circle Vision entertains me.

I won't say that the riding rides part is all that scary since there are a wide range of attractions that are not mindless (CoP for example) but yes, seeing a world that is obsessed with staring at screens all day, feeling the need to tell their "followers" what they ate for breakfast, and posting online that Duck Dynasty is their favorite show...I am indeed VERY worried for the future.

 

[Nmoody1]

As a former cast member of EPCOT I am amazed that any country would want to invest in EPCOT - surely as a Disney run park, disney should be shown to be investing in EPCOTS ideals and keeping the park up to date and fresh. All the time the Wonders Of Life pavilion sits empty, ELlen is still in Energy and the Imagination Pavilion sits 75% closed! why would you care if you were represented. The world is way more accessible now than it was in the 1980s, people can be immersed in a country by a few clicks of the internet.

Disney have asked for a $9m investment? What will that cover - take a look at how much New Fantasyland cost, take a look at how much Disney spent on DCA.... $9m to EPCOT is small change.... It's not going to touch the sides of any world showcase country.

I really hope Frozen stays out of EPCOT,... Arendelle is not a real place, the film offers little insight of any Scandinavian ways of living (if we want to say it's based on Norway/Scandinavia) and there are parks that can benefit way more from a fantasy attraction.

 

[ABQ]

It's a shame so many parents these days don't put any stock in educational attractions anymore. The 'I must ride rides all day and always have something interactive in my face' mentality scares me of what the future is like. Call me crazy, but even a simple Circle Vision entertains me.

Not trying to turn this into a Uni vs Disney post at all....
However, I wonder if a little of the lack of want to create educational experiences is a result of the growth of the Orlando park options overall?
Back in '82 when EPCOT was first opening, its only local competition was what...the Magic Kingdom and I guess Seaworld? I doubt WDW had a terrible fear of losing visitors to the MK and Seaworld wasn't very large at the time. However, they could focus on education a bit more as there wasn't much to draw folks elsewhere. The lack of other entertainment options may not have been necessary, these educational experiences in the early days of EPCOT were so good anyway, but as time has worn on and so many other entertainment experiences have come, both within the entire WDW property and now the super growth spurt of Uni, it's going to be tough to convince people to visit the educational-entertainment vs pure entertainment. I suppose I could liken it to cable and satellite TV growth. As a child, I watched a ton of PBS and those sneaky people found ways to bury education within their broadcasting, but I only had 7 channels that came through on the ol' rabbit ears. Today's children far more options. Yes, there are strict channels dedicated to the educational experiences, but I'm guessing the remote can veer them away all too swiftly.
If WDW is to draw people in with educational experiences again, they'll have to step up their game to circa 1982 styles again, but we don't see that in many, if any, new attractions world wide, do we? If not, it'll be hard to tell a guest to spend x number of dollars to learn the mythology of a troll under a bridge in Oslo if they would rather be entertained fighting their way out of Gringotts.

 

[Lucky]

Not trying to turn this into a Uni vs Disney post at all....
However, I wonder if a little of the lack of want to create educational experiences is a result of the growth of the Orlando park options overall?
Back in '82 when EPCOT was first opening, its only local competition was what...the Magic Kingdom and I guess Seaworld? I doubt WDW had a terrible fear of losing visitors to the MK and Seaworld wasn't very large at the time. However, they could focus on education a bit more as there wasn't much to draw folks elsewhere. The lack of other entertainment options may not have been necessary, these educational experiences in the early days of EPCOT were so good anyway, but as time has worn on and so many other entertainment experiences have come, both within the entire WDW property and now the super growth spurt of Uni, it's going to be tough to convince people to visit the educational-entertainment vs pure entertainment. I suppose I could liken it to cable and satellite TV growth. As a child, I watched a ton of PBS and those sneaky people found ways to bury education within their broadcasting, but I only had 7 channels that came through on the ol' rabbit ears. Today's children far more options. Yes, there are strict channels dedicated to the educational experiences, but I'm guessing the remote can veer them away all too swiftly.
If WDW is to draw people in with educational experiences again, they'll have to step up their game to circa 1982 styles again, but we don't see that in many, if any, new attractions world wide, do we? If not, it'll be hard to tell a guest to spend x number of dollars to learn the mythology of a troll under a bridge in Oslo if they would rather be entertained fighting their way out of Gringotts.

I mostly agree, but I think there is a somewhat different sort of guest out there that the original Epcot was aiming for. Rightly or wrongly, they must have decided at some point that there weren't enough of those guests to bother with.

 

[ABQ]

I mostly agree, but I think there is a somewhat different sort of guest out there that the original Epcot was aiming for. Rightly or wrongly, they must have decided at some point that there weren't enough of those guests to bother with.

I totally agree with you. Absolutely those type of guests are out there, I think I'm one of them, you may be too, half the thousands of members of this forum may be. However, there of hundreds of thousands who are probably the current guest. They bring fat wallets and it's going to take some serious detox efforts to ween WDW off them.

 

[sshindel]

I mostly agree, but I think there is a somewhat different sort of guest out there that the original Epcot was aiming for. Rightly or wrongly, they must have decided at some point that there weren't enough of those guests to bother with.

I slightly disagree with one point here.
I don't think that the original EPCOT was targeting a specific type of guest. They were targeting all guests. The people that built EPCOT believed in what it stood for and believed that all people would enjoy what the park had to offer (I mean, not all people, there is nothing in the world that all people like, but all in the general sense), and for a subset of the guests, it would inspire them to do greater things.
What happened (IMO) is that the management in later years decided to listen to a segment of the population that were reacting to the existing attraction lineup and decided that instead of continuing to keep to the mission of EPCOT and update the attractions while still holding to it's core fundamental beliefs, they took the "easy" way out and just built attractions that would appeal to the masses without challenging or inspiring them at all.
Kinda like the proposed Frozen overlay of Maelstrom. Something likely needs to be done with Maelstrom sure, though IMO there are many other places that need attention first.
There are a couple options they likely have in front of them. Create a new or very updated attraction that continues to try and inspire interest and knowledge about the country of Norway, or put a proven (albeit one that has not yet proven to withstand the test of time) commodity on top of what they have, even if it bears no real connection in to the pavilion it sits in. It's cheaper, easier, and has the potential to appeal to a larger subset of the population, while once again chipping away at the core beliefs that the designers of the park held as foundational to it's design.

 

[tl77]

Not trying to turn this into a Uni vs Disney post at all....
However, I wonder if a little of the lack of want to create educational experiences is a result of the growth of the Orlando park options overall?
Back in '82 when EPCOT was first opening, its only local competition was what...the Magic Kingdom and I guess Seaworld? I doubt WDW had a terrible fear of losing visitors to the MK and Seaworld wasn't very large at the time. However, they could focus on education a bit more as there wasn't much to draw folks elsewhere. The lack of other entertainment options may not have been necessary, these educational experiences in the early days of EPCOT were so good anyway, but as time has worn on and so many other entertainment experiences have come, both within the entire WDW property and now the super growth spurt of Uni, it's going to be tough to convince people to visit the educational-entertainment vs pure entertainment. I suppose I could liken it to cable and satellite TV growth. As a child, I watched a ton of PBS and those sneaky people found ways to bury education within their broadcasting, but I only had 7 channels that came through on the ol' rabbit ears. Today's children far more options. Yes, there are strict channels dedicated to the educational experiences, but I'm guessing the remote can veer them away all too swiftly.
If WDW is to draw people in with educational experiences again, they'll have to step up their game to circa 1982 styles again, but we don't see that in many, if any, new attractions world wide, do we? If not, it'll be hard to tell a guest to spend x number of dollars to learn the mythology of a troll under a bridge in Oslo if they would rather be entertained fighting their way out of Gringotts.

I think you're partially right, that having Harry Potter down the street has pushed Disney in a more "pure entertainment" direction, but I think that because of the internet and 1000 channels of television today "educational content" isn't as valuable a commodity anymore either... if you can get the gist of Spaceship Earth on You Tube without having buying a ticket, why buy the ticket?

But selling the public on purely educational content it's just a problem in Orlando though, I live near Philadelphia PA and the Franklin Institute is one of the oldest science museums in the country, opened in 1825, but it the last 10-15 years or so they've begun looking for ways to create temporary exhibits the tie into current films and pop culture. Just recently they had an exhibit on Pompeii that tied in with the new film, The Nat Geo channels' show "Brain Games" will be filming there soon, and in the fall they are hosting Disney's D23 traveling show for a weekend.

Epcot has the same problem as the Studios 2 hour backstage tour did, that stopped being "exclusive" insider information when DVD's were invented and you could see all that "making of" info in your own home, anytime you wanted, without having to buy a ticket or stand in line. On the other hand Nemo and Elsa can only be seen inside a Disney park, so Disney is choosing to sell them instead because no one else can.

I don't agree with it but I get that it's the cheapest, easiest, most low risk, way for Disney to try and make a buck

 

[aladdin2007]

How do you know they didn't?

As for the 9million, that was for updating and continued maintenance. If Norway wants the *NORWAY* Pavilion to continue to be a platform for *NORWAY*, they should be willing to contribute to the costs.

I hope the rumor of Frozen in Norway just, that a rumor.

AKK

That is true, it would also guarantee Norway remains Norway. Not Arendelle etc, or whatever its called.

 

[ABQ]

I think you're partially right, that having Harry Potter down the street has pushed Disney in a more "pure entertainment" direction, but I think that because of the internet and 1000 channels of television today "educational content" isn't as valuable a commodity anymore either... if you can get the gist of Spaceship Earth on You Tube without having buying a ticket, why buy the ticket?

But selling the public on purely educational content it's just a problem in Orlando though, I live near Philadelphia PA and the Franklin Institute is one of the oldest science museums in the country, opened in 1825, but it the last 10-15 years or so they've begun looking for ways to create temporary exhibits the tie into current films and pop culture. Just recently they had an exhibit on Pompeii that tied in with the new film, The Nat Geo channels' show "Brain Games" will be filming there soon, and in the fall they are hosting Disney's D23 traveling show for a weekend.

Epcot has the same problem as the Studios 2 hour backstage tour did, that stopped being "exclusive" insider information when DVD's were invented and you could see all that "making of" info in your own home, anytime you wanted, without having to buy a ticket or stand in line. On the other hand Nemo and Elsa can only be seen inside a Disney park, so Disney is choosing to sell them instead because no one else can.

I don't agree with it but I get that it's the cheapest, easiest, most low risk, way for Disney to try and make a buck

Having not visited the Franklin Institute, I can't comment on how good or bad it may be to tie in to Brain Games, but I have seen the show and do find it pretty interesting "Edutainment" for lack of a better term. But honestly, I'd welcome more of that at EPCOT. When it was new, the current Ellen's Energy Adventure wasn't a terrible thing, in my opinion. Her along with Bill do well to entertain while offering legitimate insight into energy. Now if someone has an issue with who they selected as hosts, oh well.
But I would welcome more of that in Epcot today, as at its worst, it would be an attempt to move back toward the original EPCOT and enlighten guests. Not sure how, maybe I'll scour the imagineer forum section, as I'm sure someone has thought of something. Always thought if they had to rely on TV personalities that Mythbusters would do well in Epcot, but Discovery Networks are already chummy with NBC, I think. Maybe revive Good Eats in the Land and have Alton Brown explain how active yeast cultures work to us all.

 

[Macca250]

I think the majority of us can agree that new attractions are needed in WS as themed cultural venues just don't seem to cut it for a lot of today's busy tourists. I think installing a ride or two in order to get the crowds out of the comparatively more 'attraction heavy' FW will help and likely make the area more relevant again. But I really (REALLY!) don't see Frozen as the answer. Heck, I can even get on board with having Disney characters present as long as they are in some way (even if its vague) related to the country; a Princess movie set in a fictional world with lose architectural inspirations from Scandinavia is not all that relevant. I'd be far more supportive of a Ratatouille clone for the France pavilion or a Mulan dark ride for the China pavilion. At the very least, they are properties that could help promote a little bit of culture and could be implemented with more subtlety than to do something stupid like pop up Elsa's ice castle in the middle of a Norwegian village.

 

[sshindel]

But I would welcome more of that in Epcot today, as at its worst, it would be an attempt to move back toward the original EPCOT and enlighten guests. Not sure how, maybe I'll scour the imagineer forum section, as I'm sure someone has thought of something. Always thought if they had to rely on TV personalities, that Mythbusters would do well in Epcot, but Discovery Networks are already chummy with NBC, I think. Maybe revive Good Eats in the Land and have Alton Brown explain how active yeast cultures work to us all.

<warning, imagineering ahead>
While the purist in me really wishes that they could go forward with the education/edutainment aspect without having to tie in celebrities to it, the other part has always thought that this would be a great way to come to a middle ground and be able to "hook" in more people while still being able to teach and inspire the way EPCOT should.
Taking this idea to the Nth degree here (which I don't think even I could fully get behind), lets go with the idea and find good fits for every area in Epcot.

I like the idea of Alton, he'd be perfect. Since it's obvious my Kitchen Kabaret has no hope of a return, that old theater is still sitting empty. An Alton Brown tie-in could easily be put into that theater area and be able to both teach and entertain. I love it.

I've always thought that Neil deGrasse Tyson is the perfect fit for nearly any Epcot pavilion (especially after Cosmos), giving him free reign over Mission:Space (or it's post-show area) seems like a no-brainer. He also would be a darn good narrator for Spaceship Earth if nothing else.

If we cant get NDT for Spaceship Earth, maybe Morgan Freeman could add a little of his Through the Wormhole love to SSE and become the narrator.

I'm also liking the Mythbusters idea. Heck, this morning I was listening to an episode of Startalk Radio with Neil deGrasse Tyson interviewing Adam and Jaime and this strikes me as a great fit. Maybe we take the Wonders of Life pavilion and turn it into a Physics pavilion. You could do really interesting things showcasing the Laws of Physics and their impact on the current/future world. It seems like a Mythbusters themed ride could really be fun, simulating the Rocket Car, dodging explosions, etc.

I know that Test Track is new, but we could always get a tie in with the Top Gear folks (I know @Bob would move to Orlando if this happened) and do some really fun things with that pavilion based on some of their work.

Energy, just let Bill Nye update it to modern day ideas and leave it at that. He's good in there, it just needs an update.

Let's see here, that leaves us with The Seas and Imagination. For the Seas, lets push our relationship with James Cameron and hand him the keys to the pavilion to showcase his love for ocean exploration. He could do great things to show exactly the issues facing us with current ocean exploration and what the future could be if we continue to explore this part of the world.

I'd love to say we hand over Imagination to Guillermo del Toro, but it might just turn out to be a little to "intense" for most people based on his affection to the horror genre, so this might be considered heresy to some, but since we're not going to get a return of Dreamfinder, and this kind of goes against a lot of things that people rail against, lets hand over the keys to the Imagination pavilion to Pixar. We tell them it can NOT be tied into a movie property. They are to treat it with the same love and imagination that they put into their short films.

Communicor/Innoventions can become a showcase for all kinds of ever-changing up-and-coming artists, inventors, scientists, etc.

There, future world is done, interesting to a large portion of the population, and would hold true to the core mission it was founded upon. While Walt envisioned that EPCOT would be a cooperation between Disney and various corporations, it's not too far fetched to say that since Corporations are People, then People are transversely Corporations.

Now, World Showcase (so I can at the least say that this is kinda related to the OP).

I'd love, love, love to be able to give the World Showcase to Anthony Bourdain and let him act as a sort of host/consultant to the upgrade/reinvention of World Showcase, but he might be a little controversial for Disney's tastes (though he'd be the perfect fit).
Maybe we can partner with Mario Batali instead. He has a for life that would ooze out of the World Showcase, plus it would allow Disney to continue to suckle at the teat of Food & Wine (and the plethora of dollars it brings in). People like this would ensure that the countries represented were not bastardized for the sake of a Disney tie-in.
<end imagineering>

I now return you to your Frozen in Maelstrom conversation.

 

[tl77]

Having not visited the Franklin Institute, I can't comment on how good or bad it may be to tie in to Brain Games, but I have seen the show and do find it pretty interesting "Edutainment" for lack of a better term. But honestly, I'd welcome more of that at EPCOT. When it was new, the current Ellen's Energy Adventure wasn't a terrible thing, in my opinion. Her along with Bill do well to entertain while offering legitimate insight into energy. Now if someone has an issue with who they selected as hosts, oh well.
But I would welcome more of that in Epcot today, as at its worst, it would be an attempt to move back toward the original EPCOT and enlighten guests. Not sure how, maybe I'll scour the imagineer forum section, as I'm sure someone has thought of something. Always thought if they had to rely on TV personalities, that Mythbusters would do well in Epcot, but Discovery Networks are already chummy with NBC, I think. Maybe revive Good Eats in the Land and have Alton Brown explain how active yeast cultures work to us all.

Don't get me wrong I prefer the original Epcot to the current incarnation, and I understand that using their own exclusive, name brand characters, is a low risk, way to draw a crowd, generally... but building great rides that fit the theme/ideals of what's already there, that would also result their own exclusive, name brand theme park attractions and draw a crowd, but for some reason they don't want to be bothered with that

In regards to Maelstrom, what has already been proposed sounds like a huge improvement to me which is this

1. Lose the movie at the end which most people skip, and turn the movie theater in the queue area

2. Make the current unload area of the ride do double duty as both load and unload

3. Make the current load area into an additional ride scene, which in turn makes the ride longer

That part of the plan I have no problem with, but if Disney wants $9mil dollars from the Norwegian government to keep the ride themed to Norway, "or else" they're going to theme it to Frozen? If that's the case that's just stupid, it'll make Disney look like such incredible a-holes even if it does end up as Frozen it could end up hurting the Frozen brand that they are trying to capitalize on.

Disney needs to stop being so cheap and impatience with this, leave Maelstrom themed to Maelstrom just ditch the movie, improve and expand on what's already there, and apply that same logic to the rest of Epcot. Then build a decent Frozen attraction were those cheap circus tents are in Fantasyland, because Frozen is a more unique IP than the circus tents, and while Frozen won't be no.1 forever it won't fade from people's memories any time soon either. They need to stop with all these little "quick fixes" and start think "long term" again

 

[MarkTwain]

It's a shame so many parents these days don't put any stock in educational attractions anymore. The 'I must ride rides all day and always have something interactive in my face' mentality scares me of what the future is like. Call me crazy, but even a simple Circle Vision entertains me.

I'm not 100% sure that's true. Often, I've overheard parents encourage their kids to try and identify each country in iasw, or heard families having meaningful conversations about plants and food on Living with the Land. I think many parents are willing to take advantage of an educational opportunity when one is presented to them. The problem is that Disney continually underestimates the tastes of their audience, and has no interest in providing that kind of experience anymore.

 

[cw1982]

I'm not 100% sure that's true. Often, I've overheard parents encourage their kids to try and identify each country in iasw, or heard families having meaningful conversations about plants and food on Living with the Land. I think many parents are willing to take advantage of an educational opportunity when one is presented to them. The problem is that Disney continually underestimates the tastes of their audience, and has no interest in providing that kind of experience anymore.

I think it's a mixture of both, honestly. I can't tell you how tired I get of hearing parents complain when their kids have to do anything educational outside of the classroom. Feel free to Google "summer learning loss" and find plenty of information. Take summer reading, for example. I could present hundreds of studies that prove that students who do nothing educational over the summer suffer from a move backwards in their education. By the time students get to high school, if they have not been reading over the summer in grades 1-8, they typically start their 9th grade year at about a 5th grade reading level. Take kids who can't read on level at the age of 14 and expect them to read at a 9th grade level, and many of their academic grades, not just ELA, suffer. In schools where I worked that have required summer reading to help combat this issue, countless parents year after year have the nerve to tell us that we have "no business taking away their child's summer. That's their fun time." Sure, there are plenty of parents who DO make their kids to the assignment, but the number of students who have it done by the due date is almost always split pretty evenly down the middle.

In short: my observations (and research that I did for grad school) show that more and more parents are subscribing to the idea that anything educational is the responsibility of classroom teachers, and therefore, they resent the idea of "doing the teacher's job for them" (I've actually heard this said in parent meetings before).

I do agree with you, though, that this is far from all parents, and that Disney should not be assuming that all parents want everything to be dumbed down and lose any educational value.

 

[Matt_Black]

Regarding the bit about media saturation and education, I think it's more that, in this day and age, if you want to learn something, it's easier than ever. You can google on your computer or smart phone and you're on your way. With that kind of competition, both the entertainment and educational content of an attraction have to be top notch to keep someone's attention.

 

[Mike S]

Regarding the bit about media saturation and education, I think it's more that, in this day and age, if you want to learn something, it's easier than ever. You can google on your computer or smart phone and you're on your way. With that kind of competition, both the entertainment and educational content of an attraction have to be top notch to keep someone's attention.

Luckily that is (or at least it used to be) Disney's specialty.