The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[Bolna]

Not exactly right.

WDW's occupancy was 90% as recently as 2008. WDW's lowest occupancy ever was 75% in 2002. In 2013, occupancy was 79%, but that number was inflated by DVC, which has added 1950 rooms since 2002. Take away DVC and WDW's hotel occupancy was around 76%. WDW also has about 4% of its rooms out-of-service. Take that into consideration and about 72% of WDW's hotel rooms were occupied in FY2013. (Note Disney's fiscal year runs October to September.)

Excluding WDW, the Metro Orlando area occupancy was 71% (pulled down by the North Orlando area), with the nearby Lake Buena Vista hotels running at 78% in 2013. WDW's hotel occupancy rate currently is running below local hotels.

There's one reason and one reason only that WDW's occupancy rate is lower than Lake Buena Vista's: price.

Disney's plan to convert WDW hotel rooms to DVC is not indicative of a healthy hotel business model.

I just realised something when I read your post about occupancy rates in the context of this thread. And I think it might be a further reason for the trend towards having DVC at every deluxe resort.

Some time ago, I think December 2012 when they published the annual dues for 2013 one of the explanations given for why certain resorts have a higher percentage increase than others was: the reason how shared resorts calculate the DVC share. One would think it is calculated by number of rooms or beds or something like that. No, it is actually calculated by number of guests. So the total number of guests staying at the hotel vs. the total number of guests staying at DVC. There appeared to be trends of certain resorts attracting larger groups in the DVC rooms, especially once the secret was out about the AKV one-bedrooms having beds for 5, not four. While other resorts seem to have become more popular by couples and hence have a smaller DVC load.

Of course, the DVC load will always be very high due to the nature of the system. So, if you have a DVC at the hotel, in times you have problems filling your room, you have someone else picking up the tab - since the ratio of hotel guests to DVC guests will shift in the way to put more of the expenses onto DVC. Very smart!!

 

[Mr. Moderate]

WDW would have to go beyond just offering more fast passes to resorot guests though. Universal did the smart thing and limited their fast pass system and it works so much better for everyone. I know people will flame me but disney needs to not mak it available to everyone or at lease limit the free usability of it.

Either that or discount park admission for length of stay..

WDW long ago should have gave more options and reasons why you would want to stay at one of their deluxe resorts and pay the high rack rate. They should have at least gave the all members in your party 3 fast passes a day, for the length of your stay, to be used at anytime, type of thing. Instead Disney kept raising prices and offering little in terms of service year after year and it got way past the point of justifying it. For years I was one of those die hard fans who stayed at the Polynesian and struggled with paying the ridiculous rooms rates, but thought it all evened out in the end when you added up the whole vacation experience. It just got to the point where the reality gap and what Disney charges, was just too wide to ignore anymore for me. If it wasn't for DVC, I would be using offsite hotels that really offer great service at competitive prices.

I was amazed the first time I stayed onsite at USO at the Portofino and at a way cheaper rate than the WDW deluxes, and using the room key as the express pass for the first time. It changed how I looked at touring the parks and showed me how little WDW was offering me for all the money I was giving them for the privilege of staying at the Polynesian or any of the other deluxe properties they offer.

 

[acishere]

I have often wondered if POR was so popular because it was the only moderate for a family of 5 outside of the cabins.

I think it definitely is a factor in the resort's popularity. Since they are adding the feature to CBR in its latest refurb, we can see how that affects the demand between the two resorts and really see how big of a factor the extra bed is when families are booking a moderate.

 

[The Mom]

Perhaps the moderator could succinctly tell us what is "On Topic" as I remember we were talking about the future of DVC Resorts in Walt Disney World as pertains to the Future of the resort... Weren't we?
Does this thread only pertain to theme park attractions?

The topic keeps going off on the " Rich people who always stay in expensive hotels behave terribly." "Poor people who have never stayed in expensive hotels behave terribly." "Middle class people who sometimes stay in expensive hotels, and sometimes stay in inexpensive hotels behave terribly." "People who shop at Wal-Mart behave terribly."
"hey, I shop at Wal-Mart, and i don't behave terribly."

And so on. That's why the posts were deleted - class warfare at it's nastiness. Which wasn't really the topic. The topic is what is planned (more DVCs), why is it being planned, and what does it mean for the future of WDW theme parks AND resorts.

 

[The Mom]

From the terms and rules listed on the bottom of the page:


10. If you have a problem with or question about a moderator’s decision, contact the moderator privately or submit a message through the contact system. Posts or topics discussing moderator actions will be removed

This is the last time I will respond in the thread. Thank you.

 

[lobelia]

Depends on the room location. We stayed there last spring and had a king room and no space for more.

Edit: They have the new rooms with the fun beds and stuff in some of the plantation rooms too and the AB. The king room we had was a corner room and very nice as it had been renovated recently.

 

[crispy]

I haven't stayed in AB, but I think the rooms that sleep 5 are the same size as they regular room. They used to have a trundle bed, but after being refurbished, they now have a small Murphy bed which gives the room additional sleeping space - not necessarily space to walk around.

I think the popularity of these rooms show there is a need (or want) for onsite rooms that that sleep 5. TDO's answer was the family suites at AoA, but I think they priced themselves out of the market from the get-go.

 

[alphac2005]

I see this, too, and it could be readily remedied by Disney giving the "guests" (walking wallets in Disney's eyes) an experience that they feel is worth the high prices paid. However, when you pay the prices for a MK view at CR and the shower head is covered in calcium and lime buildup and the vents are covered in a very thick coating of dust (not that that could possibly happen to someone), the guests can become disenchanted and begin to rationalize unacceptably poor behavior.
Sadly, Disney's recent moves, including this DVC expansion, seem to be avoiding this issue.

We haven't stayed at a WDW resort in four years. The signs of neglect have been going on for years, but what I observed with many of the people that throwing fits is that they weren't having issues with their rooms, rather they were simply being PITAs. Legit gripes as you've had (and see below) are a whole other thing. I remember in the old days of excellent maintenance and quality that the types would raise their voices or demand something extra with any and everything because they PAID for it. You know, the whole show about how much money they spent. I grew up in that type of world and it's just a toxic environment and mentality. What those types failed to recognize was that everyone else also PAID for it and weren't demanding anything extra because there should be such.

The last time we stayed on property, it was my my wife and I, our children, and my parents with adjoining rooms. We get settled into both rooms and the air conditioner in their room was dead and the toilet was backed up. Disney (R) Magic (TM), eh? Did they fix the problem. Nope. Just shuffled us elsewhere without any attempt to simply fix the problems. They had us go to different rooms after things were unpacked and my dad was in a one of the few specialty handicap accessible rooms that they had at the resort. The replacement rooms did not have either with the handicap accessibility we needed. That's the last time we've spent a cent with their "resorts." Up until that point, we had stayed at every resort on property except the GF and Polynesian. Heck, I was even at Disney Inn on their last day in service. It told all of us loud and clear that this company could care less about you as a customer and you're clearly a speck on a spreadsheet. Just as @WDW1974 says, the place has been Walmartized. Neither care about the customer, all they want is the cash, and upkeep & quality are foreign concepts. It's really sad.

 

[Bocabear]

The topic keeps going off on the " Rich people who always stay in expensive hotels behave terribly." "Poor people who have never stayed in expensive hotels behave terribly." "Middle class people who sometimes stay in expensive hotels, and sometimes stay in inexpensive hotels behave terribly." "People who shop at Wal-Mart behave terribly."
"hey, I shop at Wal-Mart, and i don't behave terribly."

And so on. That's why the posts were deleted - class warfare at it's nastiness. Which wasn't really the topic. The topic is what is planned (more DVCs), why is it being planned, and what does it mean for the future of WDW theme parks AND resorts.

Thanks Mom... I thought if you clarified what you meant about off topic, it would be instructive for all.
Did not realize I had to do that privately.

 

[PhotoDave219]

The topic keeps going off on the " Rich people who always stay in expensive hotels behave terribly." "Poor people who have never stayed in expensive hotels behave terribly." "Middle class people who sometimes stay in expensive hotels, and sometimes stay in inexpensive hotels behave terribly." "People who shop at Wal-Mart behave terribly."
"hey, I shop at Wal-Mart, and i don't behave terribly."

And so on. That's why the posts were deleted - class warfare at it's nastiness. Which wasn't really the topic. The topic is what is planned (more DVCs), why is it being planned, and what does it mean for the future of WDW theme parks AND resorts.

Well maybe we should discuss class warfare. Maybe we should discuss how management is essentially saying "this is magical .... And if you want to see all the magic, you can pay even more money" and the whatnot.

Class warfare exists and the Disney company is reinforcing it with its current economic structure

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

Well earlier the Moderator said that discussing WDW resorts was fine as long as the post was brought back to center. So one might say that room size is indeed on topic... "might."

The walmart topic was more about the term "walmarting" not focusing on the store itself but itself business practices and how TWDC is/isn't following those practices.

Yes, their were comments about the guest at resorts. But if the topic is resorts, aren't the guest fair game? The behavior of guest whether in or out of the parks can have an impact on your experience.
If I had a room next to loud guest, then you bet I'm going to critique them as well as the hotel if nothing is done about it.

 

[flynnibus]

Universal's Deluxe Resort hotel rate is largely driven by the transformational experience provided by their unlimited Express Pass for nearly all attractions at Uni's two theme parks

Certainly that is a huge (I'd argue.. 75% or more) of the reason for staying there and justifying the prices. But doesn't change the hotel experience or how it stacks up

If WDW offered such a service, then they'd have to build more Deluxe Resort hotels, not convert existing Deluxe Resort rooms to DVC (IMHO).

nah, they'd just tack the 'value' on top of the old prices

When my parents took me in the 80s.. we stayed at the deluxes and I felt we had a 'vacation kingdom' experience. It also helps we used to always do the 'all inclusive' keys to the kingdom program so we had unlimited food and recreation. I learned to water ski at WDW, I used to love the mini boats, etc.

Since the 90s.. when I had to pay the bills... we've only stayed offsite, values, or shades of green. I wish my children would have been able to get the kind of experiences I had a kid -- but I don't think it's the choice of hotel that really is holding them back.

The thought that keeps striking a nerve for me is... the things that stand out to me the most about WDW as a child and young adult are NOT THE ATTRACTIONS. It was the sum of the parts, and frankly far more of the experience that wasn't rides. Be it dining, recreation, immersion, atmosphere, service, unique experiences, etc. It wasn't that WDW had POTC that made it such an exotic place to me compared to Kings Dominion... it was everything that made up my vacation that made WDW unlike anywhere else on earth.

To me that is the greatest crime... that Disney has steered everyone into being park commandos that WDW is just theme parks + hotels. We do it now too.. stay in the parks till all hours and do the parks everyday. It's behavior shaped by Disney's offerings and pricing models.

 

[doctornick]

After visits to both UNI and WDW THIS past June, I'm calling the trashy element tally a tie. I went expecting better from UNI, but the grown, somewhat heavy women in bikinis and sheer bathing suit cover-ups and kids in swim suits playing in the water features evened up the the count. I get the water based rides get you soaked, but that was over the top.

One thing I don't get on these pages is the implication that Uni guests are somehow "better" or "classier" than WDW guests. From my experience, they are not only the same "type" of people -- they are generally the same exact people. Uni might slant more for teens and WDW for toddlers, but the guest pools are basically the same.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

One thing I don't get on these pages is the implication that Uni guests are somehow "better" or "classier" than WDW guests. From my experience, they are not only the same "type" of people -- they are generally the same exact people. Uni might slant more for teens and WDW for toddlers, but the guest pools are basically the same.

@WDW1974 brought that up. He mentioned his reason behind it earlier. I can't find the post.
Something about more for your money and better quality product.

 

[devoy1701]

Certainly that is a huge (I'd argue.. 75% or more) of the reason for staying there and justifying the prices. But doesn't change the hotel experience or how it stacks up



nah, they'd just tack the 'value' on top of the old prices

When my parents took me in the 80s.. we stayed at the deluxes and I felt we had a 'vacation kingdom' experience. It also helps we used to always do the 'all inclusive' keys to the kingdom program so we had unlimited food and recreation. I learned to water ski at WDW, I used to love the mini boats, etc.

Since the 90s.. when I had to pay the bills... we've only stayed offsite, values, or shades of green. I wish my children would have been able to get the kind of experiences I had a kid -- but I don't think it's the choice of hotel that really is holding them back.

The thought that keeps striking a nerve for me is... the things that stand out to me the most about WDW as a child and young adult are NOT THE ATTRACTIONS. It was the sum of the parts, and frankly far more of the experience that wasn't rides. Be it dining, recreation, immersion, atmosphere, service, unique experiences, etc. It wasn't that WDW had POTC that made it such an exotic place to me compared to Kings Dominion... it was everything that made up my vacation that made WDW unlike anywhere else on earth.

To me that is the greatest crime... that Disney has steered everyone into being park commandos that WDW is just theme parks + hotels. We do it now too.. stay in the parks till all hours and do the parks everyday. It's behavior shaped by Disney's offerings and pricing models.

Yes Yes Yes to the bolded part! They no longer care about being the "Vacation Kingdom of the World' and the experience as a whole.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the future they started charging for the campfire sing-alongs and watching movies on the beach, or eliminate these "free" offerings altogether, or decide not to offer horseback riding or boat rentals. Guests wont have time for these anymore anyway since we're getting to scheduling out every second of their trip.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

Yes Yes Yes to the bolded part! They no longer care about being the "Vacation Kingdom of the World' and the experience as a whole.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the future they started charging for the campfire sing-alongs and watching movies on the beach, or eliminate these "free" offerings altogether, or decide not to offer horseback riding or boat rentals. Guests wont have time for these anymore anyway since we're getting to scheduling out every second of their trip.

BY GOLLY! I think you've cracked the code! This is probably the goal they've been working toward all along.
Keep em in the parks, keep em spending!

 

[awilliams4]

I wouldn't be surprised if in the future they started charging for the campfire sing-alongs and watching movies on the beach

DVC Members already pay for this through maintenance fees. Pretty sure it falls under resort entertainment or something like that.

 

[doctornick]

@WDW1974 brought that up. He mentioned his reason behind it earlier. I can't find the post.
Something about more for your money and better quality product.

Yes, I saw it. I don't agree. I think the guests at Uni and WDW by and large act exactly the same, especially since they are largely the same exact guests. At least that has been my experience and the resorts.

 

[magic19us]

Universal's Deluxe Resort hotel rate is largely driven by the transformational experience provided by their unlimited Express Pass for nearly all attractions at Uni's two theme parks. Having access to unlimited fast passes all day long makes for a completely different experience at the theme parks.

If WDW's Deluxe Resorts offered a comparable service, then WDW's Deluxe Resort prices would be well-justified (IMHO).

If WDW offered such a service, then they'd have to build more Deluxe Resort hotels, not convert existing Deluxe Resort rooms to DVC (IMHO).

Excellent thought.......or offered 6+ Fastpass+ allocations per day (twice the standard pre-arrival advance reservation count).

 

[crispy]

Certainly that is a huge (I'd argue.. 75% or more) of the reason for staying there and justifying the prices. But doesn't change the hotel experience or how it stacks up



nah, they'd just tack the 'value' on top of the old prices

When my parents took me in the 80s.. we stayed at the deluxes and I felt we had a 'vacation kingdom' experience. It also helps we used to always do the 'all inclusive' keys to the kingdom program so we had unlimited food and recreation. I learned to water ski at WDW, I used to love the mini boats, etc.

Since the 90s.. when I had to pay the bills... we've only stayed offsite, values, or shades of green. I wish my children would have been able to get the kind of experiences I had a kid -- but I don't think it's the choice of hotel that really is holding them back.

The thought that keeps striking a nerve for me is... the things that stand out to me the most about WDW as a child and young adult are NOT THE ATTRACTIONS. It was the sum of the parts, and frankly far more of the experience that wasn't rides. Be it dining, recreation, immersion, atmosphere, service, unique experiences, etc. It wasn't that WDW had POTC that made it such an exotic place to me compared to Kings Dominion... it was everything that made up my vacation that made WDW unlike anywhere else on earth.

To me that is the greatest crime... that Disney has steered everyone into being park commandos that WDW is just theme parks + hotels. We do it now too.. stay in the parks till all hours and do the parks everyday. It's behavior shaped by Disney's offerings and pricing models.

This post struck a chord with me. I have only visited WDW since 2000 so I'm relatively new to them. Even when I try to have a relaxing WDW vacation, I still tend to go into commando mode (insert obvious joke here). A basic package with hotel, park tickets, and dining is so expensive that it's hard to for me to justify doing things like water skiing because I will feel like I have wasted a perfectly good park day - a park that I spent a lot of money to be in.

I think that's why the deluxe hotels have suffered. How many times have you read on these boards "all we need is a place to sleep and shower"? I have said it myself. We spend so much on park tickets that it seems silly to waste time doing other things like sitting at the pool or visiting the spa or plopping down another $50 to go play miniature golf when we have valid park ticket. In turn, it seems like a lot of amenities have been removed because people weren't using them or they weren't bringing in enough profit to justify their existence. That in turn, makes people look for lower priced options because, as you said "WDW is just theme parks + hotels" not a true resort experience. Instead of steering people back into focusing on WDW as a resort with more to offer than just theme parks, they "resorted" to raising prices to cover the ground they lost while continuing to take away things that add intrinsic value. It's kind of a vicious cycle. They seem to realize that there is a problem (the commercial from earlier this year was focused more on the hotel stay than the parks), but I don't think they have hit on a good solution for this.