The Spirited Seventh Heaven ...

[WDW1974]

Spirited Musings:

Well, UNI came out with quarterly earnings today, here's Soup & Salad Sandra's take: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-comcast-earnings-20140722,0,4953200.story

Nothing too surprising. These are results PRE-Diagon Alley and they are damn fine for all the folks who think people delayed vacations to wait for Potter 2.0.

A friend brought up an interesting philosophical debate last night: how many WDW fans (or UNI fans) are simply fans of themed entertainment in general versus being BRAND lovers? I think it is a fascinating question because it plays into so many things, including my fave -- mental illness.

How many Disney fans gave two blanks about Marvel before Disney purchased it? How many UNI fans really like the Transformers? How many Disney fans watch Nashville on ABC because it is owned by Mickey? How many UNI fans would rip some design choices at Cabana Bay if anyone but UNI built it? etc etc

Under the Dome Season 2 is really, really, really not very good.

Was in my local Target today and they had slashed the prices on Planes toys (you know it was the only reason I went, right?) Am wondering if that's a sign that Disney overestimated the market or not ... the film still opened to $18 plus million, which isn't bad and it will likely pull families in for quite a while with not many kid-friendly films around.

Finally got around to seeing Grand Budapest Hotel, which was a very enjoyable (but not great) film.

 

[WDW1974]

@WDW1974 I agree, WDS has a surprisingly decent attraction roster. Crush's Coaster is a fun ride (albeit with horrible capacity and constant breakdowns), CinéMagique is a charming show, and Ratatouille adds a decent dark ride to the mix (although I can't imagine that it live ups to the trackless rides in Tokyo and Hong Kong). That said, the park needs placemaking more than DCA needed it in 2001. None of the parks in WDW have that issue to the same extent (even if several areas could benefit from it, primarily in DHS).

Yes, it needs placemaking. But I can still go and enjoy attractions there, which is why I go to theme parks to begin with. Ugly ...barren ... cheap? Yes, those all are words I'd use to describe DSP. But then I'd go and enjoy about a dozen attractions. I'm not sure there are a dozen legit attractions at TPFKaTD-MGMS.

I don't do any shopping at Disney (ok that's a lie - I've bought two Donald pins over the past 10 years), but Disney Village still feels like an important component of DLP. It links 3 of the on-site hotels to the theme parks, and it's adjacent to the bus/train station where so many visitors arrive at DLP. Downtown Disney in Orlando is much less important to WDW's 'vibe' overall, but I'm still excited about the placemaking that DTD is about to receive. No, the intentions for it might not be the best (of course WDW's shopping district got a fast-tracked overhaul while the parks sit stagnant), but improvements are still improvements. I'll take Disney Springs over a rotting Pleasure Island.

I do shop on vacation and have done so at every Disney and UNI shopping complex that exists in the USA and Paris. ... But it has never been, and never will be, an important component of a trip. And as I've said in countless threads, no one will convince me that making over DD into DS will drive attendance to the resort at all.

It's sad that WDW's parks are still struggling (at least to people like us who are embarrassed by COP's condition and know that a lackluster Arendelle invasion isn't what Epcot needs), but on the surface, I don't think the situation looks too dire. That's the problem, IMO - WDW doesn't have anything that's a certified disaster (compared to the original DCA and WDS). You might not be wrong about the condition of WDW, but the resort can still afford to coast on its reputation. I hate saying that - I'd like to see some of those changes that have been rumored for Epcot (not talking about Frozen here) and DHS, but they just don't seem necessary to me. Accountants and analysts might be saying the same thing.

We could go around in circles, but I really don't have the energy with work and the summer heat and humidity. I fundamentally believe that you are wrong. That beyond short term financials, that WDW absolutely can't coast any longer without incurring major long term BRAND degradation. What you don't feel is necessary, I saw as necessary a decade ago (longer actually). The longer this situation continues, the less likely that WDW will ever recover or come close to its former glories.

UNI is flat out better than WDW in so many major metrics and has been now for years.

We'll see if Universal's growth does anything to change this trajectory, but WDW still strikes me as a sleeping giant. And frankly, they can get away with sleeping for a few more years. Maybe WDW will have to reach Disneyland levels (circa 2003) before anything really changes, but I hope things don't plummet that much.

You mean, WDW needs to actually kills its guests before things will get better? That it needs attractions where roofs start collapsing because they weren't maintained before things get better? WDW needs 130% turnover in CMs before things start to get better?

See, if I wanted to slay a giant. I'd much rather do it when he/she/it was sleeping. And that is what is happening.

 

[Fantasmicguy]

Mission Space green was my savior.

I'm waiting for Harry Potter green...

Slytherin?

 

[WDW1974]

Oh, haven't had a chance to look, but someone said that Robert Niles (whose mom gave me the best cupcakes I have ever eaten before showing me around Golden Oak last year) is reporting that absolutely no Star Wars work will begin until after Star Wars VII comes out and Disney reviews what was liked/disliked by fans. ... Based on timelines I have heard, I suspect he is accurate.

 

[HTF]

Alright let's clear a few things up here,

First off I never started the one ride per day rumor, I merely took a picture and tweeted the reride wait time sign in front of Hogwarts Express at the south station confirming it's been thrown around by operations. I said many other things about the HE months before anyone else but this "rumor" wasn't mine.

Second of all to say this land has been anything but a success shows a lack of looking deeper into the situation. We all know that Diagon holds a lot more people than Hogsmeade but what most people are not paying attention to is the difference between IOA in 2010 and USF in 2014. When Hogsmeade opened in 2010 people came for Potter and stayed for Potter. While wait times were outrageous in Hogsmeade other parts of IOA were practically empty and the Studios was a ghost town. In addition IOA was never built to handle the crowds people saw during the Summer of 2010. It was very unorganized and led to wait times that were much longer than were really calked for.

Fast forward to July 8th 2014 and it's a much different story. Again let's mention Diagons capacity which is more than double that of Hogsmeade. Then let's focus on what no one can argue. Wait times for other attractions in the Studios are longer. Simpsons, Transformers, DM, and the lot are doing exactly what there supposed to do by spreading crowds out. In addition the Studios is able to handle crowds much larger than that of IOA with ease. With the opening of Diagon many things were learned from 2010 and very much improved upon. No celebrities, parking garages opened at 5am, queues set up park wide for overflow of any attraction possible. Every manager, team lead, janitor, and every other type of team member was working crowd control and operations. Hell even park and resort executives, people from creative, and so on were there with name tags on making it as smooth as possible. They did such a good job that many people have this feeling it's been an unsuccessful addition to the park. Which couldn't be further from the truth in fact it's been so good that new doors have opened up. Finally what if I told you that on opening day of Diagon Alley double the number of guests entered USF then what did on June 18 2010 for phase 1...

So let's recap shall we, Diagon is a success plain and simple. If any trolls try to say otherwise just refer back to this post. Thanks!

PS: Fun Fact, Ollivanders in Diagon has 10 times more hourly capacity than Hogsmeade Ollivanders did when it opened in 2010.

 

[WDW1974]

Just lots of interviews with people from the themed entertainment industry. Big names and smaller ones. One of the hosts is also actually in the industry so the conversations are not always the same as what the lifestylers would get. The bigger names can sometimes be a little boring just because they have their set of stories that they tend to repeat. An example would be Tony Baxter's interview last year with Theme Park Insider, it was very similar to the one he gave earlier to The Season Pass.

Thanks. I'll listen if someone interests me. I wouldn't ever listen to Tony because I know him and I know his best tales are said in private conversations.

 

[cw1982]

I do shop on vacation and have done so at every Disney and UNI shopping complex that exists in the USA and Paris. ... But it has never been, and never will be, an important component of a trip. And as I've said in countless threads, no one will convince me that making over DD into DS will drive attendance to the resort at all.

I agree with this 100%. I've never really understood why people lump DS into any list of things that are supposed to be used as support that the parks are still being properly developed. I don't know anyone who travels across the country to go to DTD, nor would they probably do the same for DS. As someone coming from Atlanta, DTD/DS is more the kind of place I see myself going on a day when we're taking a break from the parks, or maybe even stopping there on our last day before we hit the interstate to head home, which is what we did in June. The area looks like it will be nice enough for what it is, but it's certainly not enough to be a staple reason for me to travel to Orlando.

 

[WDW1974]

I see!
so, while George can be good.. he as been pretty much "tamed" to be a corporate drone and yessmen?

Yes.

 

[WDW1974]

I'm quoting you in the 7th heaven thread to keep 8th wonders scope. Just want to ask one quick question, has TWDC ever given serious thought to restructuring the corporate heirarchy for the better? Perhaps creating the CCO position for the entire company rather than just for animation considering the role is applicable to all their lines of business.

I really couldn't say. Just not sure what may have been considered over time ...

 

[WDW1974]

You wouldn't want Lasseter to be CCO of the whole company. I will give him credit for his successes, but he's not the creative dreamboat so many fans make him out to be. Thus far his influence at Imagineering has created Cars Land, which he happily takes credit for - but where was his influence on FLE? (Hint: it wasn't there, probably because the project didn't involve Woody, Buzz, Sully or Lightning McQueen) Why has he let WDW remain untouched during his tenure? Perhaps he'd like to claim responsibility for the Rapunzel potties?

He is a champion of his studio's IP and little else. Many of the people who still get it in Disney (an admittedly small number) have stories about the guy that would curdle milk. Suffice to say, his creative compass doesn't always point due north, and that's been evident at Pixar in the past three years.

I'm just going to say that while I agree with some of the above that I also firmly believe JL is the closest thing to Walt this company has. Animation would be completely rudderless without him now and what he and Pixar have brought to WDFA. In addition when he has the time and is allowed to be a big part of WDI, you wind up with a masterpiece like Cars Land.

He has five boys, a wife and a vineyard and there is only so much one man can do. Honestly, he is stretched far too thin these days as is, which is why Pixar's last three films haven't been nearly as good as all the ones that came out from 1995-2010.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I agree with this 100%. I've never really understood why people lump DS into any list of things that are supposed to be used as support that the parks are still being properly developed. I don't know anyone who travels across the country to go to DTD, nor would they probably do the same for DS. As someone coming from Atlanta, DTD/DS is more the kind of place I see myself going on a day when we're taking a break from the parks, or maybe even stopping there on our last day before we hit the interstate to head home, which is what we did in June. The area looks like it will be nice enough for what it is, but it's certainly not enough to be a staple reason for me to travel to Orlando.

Downtown Disney is inside the "bubble" and that gives it a level of safety in familiarity. Doesn't matter if the local lifestyle center is cleaner, better laid out, with ample parking and most of the same stores, because it isn't magical. It's the same reason some don't go to other vacation destinations, other dining, destinations, or even just consider venturing offsite for a day at the beach.

 

[WDW1974]

We went to Club 33 several times, as we have (had?) an open invitation from an actual member who liked my photography. We haven't been in the last two years, because the last time we were there I basically asked to myself what are we doing? after paying a $300+ bill.

Clearly he didn't like your photography enough to pick up the tab! How gauche.

Assuming we still have the invite following the new restrictions, we will probably go back once if only to see what it's now like, but I am not a fan of most of the changes. (If we do go, I'd write both on design and food...so you're at least getting part of your wish.) The Court of Angels is what really gets me, as that was my favorite place in all of Disneyland. Seriously--I loved it so much we flew out for the last night it was open. It seems like a little thing to many people, but it being removed is representative of a larger problem, and something I doubt I'll ever forgive.

Interior decor and design aside, what bugs me the most is that the changes to New Orleans Square have occurred with Club 33 being the predominant concern, and the affect on regular parkgoers in the background. The off-center window and closed-off Court of Angels are prime examples. That just isn't right.

Club 33 desperately needed a refurbishment, as it was looking quite worn, but this was not what it needed. What made the place special was its rich history, and that has more or less been removed or bastardized.

They removed the history. They removed Walt. They made it a showcase for exclusivity and paying more than the peons. It was actually the opposite of what the Club was originally built as. They destroyed much of the charm of NoS to achieve this and made sure any/every one would know about its existence. BTW, has the DPB put up posts or video or pics yet? Again, that is the tacky money-grubbing Disney Way.

As far as food goes, Club 33 was nothing all that special before. It was good-to-great (not as great as it should've been), but I think both Napa Rose and Carthay Circle Restaurant were superior. It sounds like the food is better now, but without the history, is it "better enough" to justify the membership fee and significantly higher prices?

I don't know. I had a great meal with 'Angie' at the Napa Rose last month. It was under $200 for the two of us with alcohol and desserts. I've never had a bad meal there or even just a 'good' one and there is no pretentiousness about dining there.

At this point you're basically paying for exclusivity, and I have no interest in that. I can barely handle the smug atmosphere at Whole Foods, let alone at private clubs.

That 'tude is also prevalent at Trader Joe's, which I like and the fanbois seem to love, which is expanding to Florida now.

BTW - I think you're wrong about Lifestylers at Club 33. That has never been my experience with the demographic (well, besides myself, I guess). My observation has been that it's mostly affluent folks; I wouldn't be surprised if many of them don't even care about the actual history, it's just a place to go that has some cachet. That right there could explain why the shift in decor occurred--but that doesn't make it right. Remember, the OC is not like Central Florida. There's a lot of money in SoCal and plenty of prominent corporations doing business. Now, a WDW Club 33 might be a place for Lifestylers, but I don't think that can be said for Disneyland.

I don't think so. I don't know of one Lifestyler who hasn't been to Club 33, and I just don't buy they all have friends. Look at videos online and they come from Lifestylers, folks who would likely never be admitted to a local country club. I truly believe the new elevator was added to allow for those ECVers to get in.

I would guess that many of the oldtimers didn't want to see change, yet alone like this.

It isn't something I think of greatly because unless someone is taking me, I'm not going. I'll gladly hang out at a food court at the Beverly Center with a true Disney Legend chowing down on fast food versus going to 'Walt's club' to feel special and self-important.

BTW, where the hell is @sweetpee_1993 ? I thought she wanted to discuss this here?

 

[cw1982]

Downtown Disney is inside the "bubble" and that gives it a level of safety in familiarity. Doesn't matter if the local lifestyle center is cleaner, better laid out, with ample parking and most of the same stores, because it isn't magical. It's the same reason some don't go to other vacation destinations, other dining, destinations, or even just consider venturing offsite for a day at the beach.

True, but to hear some around here talk, DTD/DS should be compared with the parks in terms of reasons for people to visit WDW, and to me that's a stretch.

 

[WDW1974]

@WDW1974 Are DL's dark rides still getting upgraded in preparation of the 60th? Is that still a go, or have plans changed?

They are all a go ...

 

[DonaldDoleWhip]

I do shop on vacation and have done so at every Disney and UNI shopping complex that exists in the USA and Paris. ... But it has never been, and never will be, an important component of a trip. And as I've said in countless threads, no one will convince me that making over DD into DS will drive attendance to the resort at all.

I agree with this 100%. I've never really understood why people lump DS into any list of things that are supposed to be used as support that the parks are still being properly developed. I don't know anyone who travels across the country to go to DTD, nor would they probably do the same for DS. As someone coming from Atlanta, DTD/DS is more the kind of place I see myself going on a day when we're taking a break from the parks, or maybe even stopping there on our last day before we hit the interstate to head home, which is what we did in June. The area looks like it will be nice enough for what it is, but it's certainly not enough to be a staple reason for me to travel to Orlando.

I don't see Disney Springs as a reason to travel to Orlando, but lots of people are planning trips to WDW anyway. Given that fact, DS is certainly more pleasant than what was currently there. It might not be the top choice that any of us had for WDW, but I still see it as a plus.

We could go around in circles, but I really don't have the energy with work and the summer heat and humidity. I fundamentally believe that you are wrong. That beyond short term financials, that WDW absolutely can't coast any longer without incurring major long term BRAND degradation. What you don't feel is necessary, I saw as necessary a decade ago (longer actually). The longer this situation continues, the less likely that WDW will ever recover or come close to its former glories.

UNI is flat out better than WDW in so many major metrics and has been now for years.

You can believe that I'm wrong, but WDW's profits are strong and tens of millions of people continue to visit WDW each year. Furthermore, many of those people are perfectly happy with their experience. When you compare that to Walt Disney Studios (an embarrassing theme park even with Ratatouille) and the original DCA (reviled to the point where it received terrible press), no area of WDW has reached that point. It's unfortunate, since I think all the negative buzz and poor numbers for DCA helped get things moving in Anaheim. Nothing in WDW is getting attention like that.

And I have to disagree that Uni is better than WDW. It's certainly improved a lot, but the parks still have a long way to go before they match the atmosphere of WDW's parks. Marvel is a land of cheap cutouts with one impressive ride and a Six Flags coaster, and most areas of IoA did nothing for me. Despicable Me and Transformers are housed in large, visible warehouses that wouldn't pass in WDW parks (the closest Disney comparison I've seen is Crush's Coaster in Paris). The thematic execution is weaker in every area except the Wizarding World, which still suffers from the presence of Dragon Challenge. In fact, most of the good attractions are screen-based simulators or bare bones coasters. So while Uni may win in terms of quantity over the past few years (and quality of the Wizarding World), I'd say it'll take several more years before Uni matches the overall WDW experience. Thrill rides aren't enough to win me over, since Six Flags has better coasters anyway - I want atmosphere and theming as well.

You mean, WDW needs to actually kills its guests before things will get better? That it needs attractions where roofs start collapsing because they weren't maintained before things get better? WDW needs 130% turnover in CMs before things start to get better?

Yep, because it seems like Disneyland had to hit rock bottom before things improved. I'd hate to see it happen, but I don't know how anything else can bring major change for WDW. Voicing complaints on a forum certainly isn't helping.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

My own responses:

How many Disney fans gave two blanks about Marvel before Disney purchased it?

Well Marvel's growth in popularity and Disney's purchase happened roughly around the same time. Iron Man 1 was released in 2008 and I think the Disney purchase was 2010. Prior to that, you had some good Marvel things (the first 2 X-Men and Spider-Man movies, IoA's rides), but beyond that Marvel didn't have much to justify intense popularity. Certainly not when the vast majority never touched their comic books.

You could same some Disney brand advocates would love the Marvel stuff even if it wasn't good/popular, but if that were the case then Disney would likely not have purchased it. In the end, I just like good Marvel stuff. So long as that continues to be the norm, I don't care who owns them.

How many UNI fans really like the Transformers?

Bayformers sucks, but the ride is better for a number of reasons, not the least of which are its lack of human characters and its short run time.

I like G1 Transformers better, but I can't say I'm a huge fan.

How many Disney fans watch Nashville on ABC because it is owned by Mickey?

No interest in ABC programming.

How many UNI fans would rip some design choices at Cabana Bay if anyone but UNI built it?

Can't comment on the resort because I haven't been to it yet. I have no problem criticizing Royal Pacific, but if they keep giving me rooms under $140 CDN/night I'll be somewhat quieter.

 

[Mike S]

They are all a go ...

Do you by any chance know which ones will be done with and or closed for their makeover in early February? I'm hoping to have at least Mr. Toad and Pinocchio open while I'm there since they're obviously not in MK and Alice is already done so there's no worry there.

 

[WDW1974]

And I have to disagree that Uni is better than WDW. It's certainly improved a lot, but the parks still have a long way to go before they match the atmosphere of WDW's parks. Marvel is a land of cheap cutouts with one impressive ride and a Six Flags coaster, and most areas of IoA did nothing for me. Despicable Me and Transformers are housed in large, visible warehouses that wouldn't pass in WDW parks (the closest Disney comparison I've seen is Crush's Coaster in Paris). The thematic execution is weaker in every area except the Wizarding World, which still suffers from the presence of Dragon Challenge. In fact, most of the good attractions are screen-based simulators or bare bones coasters. So while Uni may win in terms of quantity over the past few years (and quality of the Wizarding World), I'd say it'll take several more years before Uni matches the overall WDW experience. Thrill rides aren't enough to win me over, since Six Flags has better coasters anyway - I want atmosphere and theming as well.

Look, we can differ over opinion and that's fine. But UNI has gone ahead of WDW in so many ways, from value for the $$$ to building the best cutting edge attractions in O-Town, to having MUCH higher quality resorts to having Team Members who don't look like they'd like to put a gun in their mouth when their shift ends to having unique themed merchandise to having parks that don't feel stuck in the 90s and neglected etc.

UNI HAS SURPASSED DISNEY in the above and countless little things. Again, if I can walk up and get a filet mignon at Mythos for $17.99 for lunch BEFORE discount, why do I have to book Le Cellier six months ahead for the privilege of eating a $45 a la carte steak?

WDW ultimately has contempt for its workers and contempt for its guests. You either see this or you don't.

UNI will never FEEL like WDW. NEVER. Because it isn't WDW. That doesn't mean that UNI can't or doesn't objectively offer a better quality product. It just doesn't have that Pixie Dust that BRAND addicts have been hooked on. I get that because I was one once too.

Yep, because it seems like Disneyland had to hit rock bottom before things improved. I'd hate to see it happen, but I don't know how anything else can bring major change for WDW. Voicing complaints on a forum certainly isn't helping.

You'd be surprised at what action posting on a forum can cause ... and some of us, some of us are working to improve things through other channels as well.

 

[Tigger1988]

Whats your podcast called?

Don't have one, but cute attempt at an insult. Failed though, as I'm lauding the merits of PROFESSIONAL podcasts.

Better luck next time.

 

[WDW1974]

Do you by any chance know which ones will be done with and or closed for their makeover in early February? I'm hoping to have at least Mr. Toad and Pinocchio open while I'm there since they're obviously not in MK and Alice is already done so there's no worry there.

No, sorry, I don't.

Would like to know myself for future plans.