Disney Skyliner shutdown and evacuation - October 6 2019

shernernum

Well-Known Member
Self-insurance is a situation in which a person or business does not take out any third-party insurance, but rather a business that is liable for some risk, such as health costs, chooses to bear the risk itself rather than take out insurance through an insurance company.

So they are not insured. They assume the risk.

Insured: pay premium and Insurance pays out claims to a contracted limit.
Self Insured: Save your money on premiums and when there is a claim you have to pay it all.

When self insured the only "insurance" they have is deep pockets.
That is not really how self insurance works (I know that is what Wikipedia says, I can read as well, it doesn't make it correct in the case of large corporations that choose to self-insure) , and this is again, splitting hairs. In most cases of self-insurance, the company assumes the risk, but an insurance fund is established and premiums are paid into it to fund the claims, much like an insurance company would do. They do not dip into their reserves or profits to pay for the claims and take the risk that way, they have an established insurance program, with an established fund which is protected and separated to be used for those purposes. In large companies, especially with multiple divisions. the self-insurance is managed in almost the exact same way it would be by a third party. Based on assets, exposure, and personnel, each division or department receives an invoice with a calculated premium that is determined by actuaries, this amount can even change from year to year based on number of claims. This is either billed to the department or division, or garnished from their revenues, depending on the way they run their accounting, and they are required to pay it, just as they would to a third party. So again, while there is no third party company, they are still insured. That is why this is splitting hairs. The initial post made it sound like TWDC just waited for a claim to come in and just paid the settlement and the attorney fees out of the billions they have just sitting around from their operations, but I seriously doubt that that is how it works. I would be willing to bet that the fund is even protected and segregated in such a way that it could go bankrupt without pulling the rest of the company into bankruptcy, that is why their is almost always a supplemental policy.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
It matters to that individual, yes. Just as Disney as a company assesses risk from their own perspective, and that matters to them. There is no one size fits all story here.
What an individual thinks is not really relevant though. They always have the option to just skip riding if they find it too risky. Just like flying or driving a car or riding Space Mountain.
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
What an individual thinks is not really relevant though. They always have the option to just skip riding if they find it too risky. Just like flying or driving a car or riding Space Mountain.

Thanks for making my point, and showing why it actually is relevant. People asking these questions and making these comments are trying to assess risk for themselves. The way some of the people here have been chastizing them, talking down to them, and treating them like garbage is pretty terrible. Stop thinking so one-dimensionally.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
What makes you think that Disney, one of the biggest companies in the world has an insurance company? They can kill a hundred people a year and pay out of pocket like it's nothing. Same with people who think Disney doesn't want to rack up lawyer fees. LOL. Disney has Lairs on staff and they don't have insurance companies except for big things like a hurricane hitting WDW hard but I'm not even sure they do that?
Even a self insured company has umbrella insurance for catastrophic loss. Even insurance companies carry re-insurance. The narrative that my comment was based on involved a mystery storm that blew in out of nowhere and caught hundreds or even thousands of guests stranded on the gondola and since one random gondola car fell from a line in a storm on a mountain that must mean all gondola cars will fall in a storm. If there was even a remote chance this could actually happen it would be a catastrophic loss, hence my reference to insurance companies. Is there a remote chance of that happening? only in doom and gloom fanboy land. The most Disney has to worry about is paying out a few nuisance lawsuits for people claiming they were stuck too long.
 
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GoofGoof

Premium Member
Thanks for making my point, and showing why it actually is relevant. People asking these questions and making these comments are trying to assess risk for themselves. The way some of the people here have been chastizing them, talking down to them, and treating them like garbage is pretty terrible. Stop thinking so one-dimensionally.
People are free to do what they want. I wasn’t arguing otherwise or chastising anyone. My point is that 1 person’s risk assessment is not relevant to Disney when deciding if the system is too risky.
 

GymLeaderPhil

Well-Known Member
The scariest costume at MNSSHP.

420362
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
People are free to do what they want. I wasn’t arguing otherwise or chastising anyone. My point is that 1 person’s risk assessment is not relevant to Disney when deciding if the system is too risky.

Yes, you're absolutely right that it isn't relevant to them. They're only 50% of the equation. :)
 

RollerCoaster

Well-Known Member
The general public that you are referring to in Disneyland are likely locals that have been there for years and know how the system operates and can do it in their sleep. It is a whole different group of people that come from all over the world in WDW and, if they haven't been exposed to the intricacies of Gondola setup and rules, will not know what they should and shouldn't do.

I asked the question about the vent windows because of all the "public transit" modes available almost none are so sensitively designed via vent window to have enough airflow to keep it comfortable on a hot day and one would think that Disney would not want to throw off that balance at random.

People are not so meek and feeble as you make them out to be. People know how to operate the windows and vents just fine. You know those little kids that are running all over the parks? They're pretty damn smart. They will not only show you how to operate your "smart phone" better, but also how to open and close the vents.

The Skyliner design is not so delicate for a comfortable ride as you're making it out to be. Worst case scenario the vents are all closed, the folks inside are too clueless to handle any affairs on their own, then they suffer for at most 9 minutes in a warm box. That is the longest ride time between stations. Based on the picture you're painting it's going to be a miracle if these same folks are alive 15 minutes after walking into the theme park that's baking in the Florida sun!
 
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RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
Holy cow! People are not so meek and feeble as you make them out to be. People know how to operate the windows and vents just fine. You know those little kids that are running all over the parks? They're pretty damn smart. They will not only show you how to operate your "smart phone" better, but also how to open and close the vents.

The Skyliner design is not so delicate for a comfortable ride as you're making it out to be. Worst case scenario the vents are all closed, the folks inside are too clueless to handle any affairs on their own, then they suffer for at most 9 minutes in a warm box. That is the longest ride time between stations. Based on the picture you're painting it's going to be a miracle if these same folks are alive 15 minutes after walking into the theme park that's baking in the Florida sun!

To be fair that specific scenario would be more like being in a car with the windows up and not running. 9 minutes could be dangerous. They would figure it out long before that though.
 

RollerCoaster

Well-Known Member
True, if the situation isn't obvious, however everything I have seen about this is was a malfunction of one gondola with no other damage to the rope or any other gondola, a quick check via movement will confirm and let them know if they can slowly move and evacuate all the gondola's

You cannot slowly move or move anything if a car is stuck in a station. You're just going to cause a pile up which is exactly what happened.

Fortunately cars getting stuck in a station is a very uncommon occurrence. Once you get the car unstuck, if possible you would remove it from the line at that station. If not, you would visually inspect, especially the grip, and then resume operation. I would as a precaution remove that car from the line for inspection at the next station where a car can be removed. Disney's

These lifts have computers that monitor the movement and spacing of all of the carriers. A stuck car should cause a fault and shut down the lift. Typically only maintenance or a senior operator can reset after this type of incident.

Streamline how? Like not preserving the site so that it can be observed, documented and assessed by the Building Official?

Florida is one of the states that does not have a Tramway Safety Board, thus no government agency inspects aerial ropeways. An incident of this nature should not warrant a government inspection. No one was injured or killed, so you don't need to preserve the scene. It was a mechanical malfunction and not very serious. Disney would obviously log the incident and report it to any insurer as a precaution, plus the equipment manufacturer. However, they likely got the message from all the press. As a precaution Disney tested the system for several days before reopening and reevaulated and made some changes to operating procedures.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Florida is one of the states that does not have a Tramway Safety Board, thus no government agency inspects aerial ropeways. An incident of this nature should not warrant a government inspection. No one was injured or killed, so you don't need to preserve the scene. It was a mechanical malfunction and not very serious. Disney would obviously log the incident and report it to any insurer as a precaution, plus the equipment manufacturer. However, they likely got the message from all the press. As a precaution Disney tested the system for several days before reopening and reevaulated and made some changes to operating procedures.
The Reedy Creek Improvement District oversees “aerial passenger tramways” per EPCOT Standard 5-1. Section 5-1.201.3, the full text of which I have previously posted, requires inspection and documentation.
 

shernernum

Well-Known Member
Yes because they can self insure or just no insurance. You never make money on insurance so why would you buy insurance if your company is worth billions. I'm sure they do have some insurance on certain things but I would bet they have no liability insure in the parks.

Most rich people don't have insurance either for many things. Life insure is a waste of money for the rich. Many houses right on the beach have no insure because it's very expensive, if it gets crushed by a storm you just rebuild out of Pocket.


Insuring an individual and insuring a corporation are very different subjects no matter how much money they have. TWDC might be mostly self-insured but if they did it like you are implying they do they would have been bankrupt decades ago. A dead or injured tourist can cost millions if you don’t handle the claims correctly. And TWDC gets probably tens of thousands of claims per year.
 
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peter11435

Well-Known Member
Even sel

Insuring an individual and insuring a corporation are very different subjects no matter how much money they have. TWDC might be mostly self-insured but if they did it like you are implying they do they would have been bankrupt decades ago. A dead or injured tourist can cost millions if you don’t handle the claims correctly. And TWDC gets probably tens of thousands of claims per year.
they can handle the claims properly without involving third parties
 

shernernum

Well-Known Member
they can handle the claims properly without involving third parties
I never said they couldn’t. The only thing I’ve ever been arguing in this thread is the idea that they aren’t insured. Self insurance is still insurance. It’s just that instead of hiring a third party they basically create an in house insurance company. They don’t just sit around paying off claims because they have a big pile of money and don’t care about having to spend it because it wouldn’t effect them. That’s absurd, but it has been implied in this thread. They employ adjusters, actuaries, lawyers, claims agents, and I am sure, charge departments and divisions premiums. That’s insurance, they just don’t contract with a third party to handle it.
 
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Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
I never said they couldn’t. The only thing I’ve ever been arguing in this thread is the idea that they aren’t insured. Self insurance is still insurance. It’s just that instead of hiring a third party they basically create an in house insurance company. They don’t just sit around paying off claims because they have a big pile of money and don’t care about having to spend it because it wouldn’t effect them. That’s absurd, but it has been implied in this thread. They employ adjusters, actuaries, lawyers, claims agents, and I am sure, charge departments and divisions premiums. That’s insurance, they just don’t contract with a third party to handle it.
I'm wondering if any publicly available information would solve this debate. It piqued my interest, so I skimmed through Disney's 2018 annual report to see if there were any clues. Under their reported operating costs, I couldn't find any specific reference to insurance payments... but this essentially proves nothing either way, because they don't itemize the credit side of their balance sheet in such detail.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I'm wondering if any publicly available information would solve this debate. It piqued my interest, so I skimmed through Disney's 2018 annual report to see if there were any clues. Under their reported operating costs, I couldn't find any specific reference to insurance payments... but this essentially proves nothing either way, because they don't itemize the credit side of their balance sheet in such detail.
You won’t find that level of detail in the Income Statement. Insurance premiums are not a material enough expense.

From page 16-17 of the 2018 10K under risk factors (I added the underlining the rest is word for word from the doc)

A variety of uncontrollable events may reduce demand for our products and services, impair our ability to provide our products and services or increase the cost of providing our products and services.
Demand for our products and services, particularly our theme parks and resorts, is highly dependent on the general environment for travel and tourism. The environment for travel and tourism, as well as demand for other entertainment products, can be significantly adversely affected in the U.S., globally or in specific regions as a result of a variety of factors beyond our control, including: adverse weather conditions arising from short-term weather patterns or long-term change, catastrophic events or natural disasters (such as excessive heat or rain, hurricanes, typhoons, floods, tsunamis and earthquakes); health concerns; international, political or military developments; and terrorist attacks. These events and others, such as fluctuations in travel and energy costs and computer virus attacks, intrusions or other widespread computing or telecommunications failures, may also damage our ability to provide our products and services or to obtain insurance coverage with respect to these events. An incident that affected our property directly would have a direct impact on our ability to provide goods and services and could have an extended effect of discouraging consumers from attending our facilities. Moreover, the costs of protecting against such incidents reduces the profitability of our operations.
In addition, we derive affiliate fees and royalties from the distribution of our programming, sales of our licensed goods and services by third parties, and the management of businesses operated under brands licensed from the Company, and we are therefore dependent on the successes of those third parties for that portion of our revenue. A wide variety of factors could influence the success of those third parties and if negative factors significantly impacted a sufficient number of those third parties, the profitability of one or more of our businesses could be adversely affected.
We obtain insurance against the risk of losses relating to some of these events, generally including physical damage to our property and resulting business interruption, certain injuries occurring on our property and some liabilities for alleged
breach of legal responsibilities. When insurance is obtained it is subject to deductibles, exclusions, terms, conditions and limits of liability. The types and levels of coverage we obtain vary from time to time depending on our view of the likelihood of specific types and levels of loss in relation to the cost of obtaining coverage for such types and levels of loss.


I hope this puts the debate to bed. Like most massive corporation TWDC is self insured for everyday claims but carries umbrella insurance for catastrophic loss.

Here’s an interesting read on how the self insurance works. Found it with a simple google search:
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Yes because they can self insure or just no insurance. You never make money on insurance so why would you buy insurance if your company is worth billions. I'm sure they do have some insurance on certain things but I would bet they have no liability insure in the parks.

Most rich people don't have insurance either for many things. Life insure is a waste of money for the rich. Many houses right on the beach have no insure because it's very expensive, if it gets crushed by a storm you just rebuild out of Pocket.


The poor buy the most insurance because they don't have money to pay a big ticket item. Something like the Disney ships are insured I'm sure but I bet Disney doesn't have many insurance policies. Ship goes down and they could lose a billion dollars so that would be insuranced. Dead tourist isn't worth much of anything.
Insurance is never about making money it’s about mitigating risks. Even though Disney has access to billions of dollars it doesn’t mean they want to pay that cash out for claims. Even the largest of companies eventually will hit a level of risk that is not tolerable. It’s a mathematical calculation.

A single death could be a claim in the many millions of dollars. An event that results in multiple fatalities can be way larger. PG&E is on the hook for the forest fires that killed 88 people and they are estimating the liability at $30B or more. Some of that is property damage but the fatalities are the bigger driver of large payouts.

I had a friend who owned a beachfront house in Topsail Beach NC just north of Myrtle Beach SC. He had insurance but had to maintain his dunes to a certain height in order to keep it. A few miles down the island a bunch of the houses were uninsured. It wasn’t that the people were rich enough to afford to rebuild, they just couldn’t find an insurance company willing to insure them. That part of the island was going to get washed out in a hurricane no matter what you did to the dunes. Insurance companies just bailed on the area and refused to insure.
 

Zipadeelady

Well-Known Member
In case anyone is interested in more than the insurance of the skyliners.


I loved the skyliners. We got to ride them just a few days ago. No waiting 20 minutes for a bus. I didn't have to stand after a day in the parks. Going from Hollywood Studios to POP took less than 10 minutes. Epcot to POP was just a few minutes longer. The lines for the skyliner were less than a couples minutes at the longest. We rode midday when the temp was 90 and the humidity was high... you'll never believe it but I didn't die from heat. Actually the breeze was so nice. In the evening it was actually chilly.

I'm afraid of heights but had no problem at all in the skyliners.

Good job Disney!

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CDDDDC02-A021-4893-A314-476EF665E08C.jpeg


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Don't worry the door didn't stay open. I took this as it was opening when we were getting ready to exit. No need to start a panic.

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