Wookies, & Rebels, & Droids... OH WHY?! The Anti-SWL in Disneyland Thread

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
This land could not be in a worse park.

:eek:

Don't let Disneyland hear you call it the worst park. :p
I'm just worried we may lose a bit of that optimism and escape that have always been so Disneyland. We'll see... ;)

Depends which demo you ask. I'm sure there will be many 30-50+ years olds who will be shedding tears of joy upon entering the land. For a demo this is the escape they've been dreaming of since their teens.

I like the PoTC example, I wonder how you feel about the attractions we have that spill outside of the attraction into the land, like Shanghai?

This is for sure different. But the biggest question will always be - is different necessarily bad, or refreshing if done well? TBD.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
This may seem odd, but I actually hope the new land isn't too, too immersive. I don't really have any interest in taking part in any public scene or role play. I'd love seeing actors performing, as long as they don't try too hard to get me involved.

Exactly. Please don't annoy me when I'm walking around, scarfing down my churro.

I have a feeling this total immersion thing will be too hard and expensive of an act to keep up long term. I would suggest visiting within the first couple years to anyone that wants the "full" experience.
 
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zooey

Well-Known Member
That's part of the fun of these boards, and I appreciate people who articulate their feelings! :)

It should at the very least be weird. As I pointed out on another thread, there's a progression that has taken place. Disneyland has always been about escape from the problems of the world. Whether that's escape to nostalgia, to a fantasy world, to nature, or escape to a brighter tomorrow. It always has been about hope and optimism. Disneyland was built on the idea we can find strength in our past and that we can build a better world.

You are absolutely correct that conflict has existed in Disneyland from pretty much the beginning. There have been attractions showing human ills, but they provide context to the worlds that exist. The Pirates caught in the caves show the ultimate meaningless nature of the treasure, the vanity, the gluttony. It all sweeps away. It's a moral tale as much as anything; ironic because Disney has worked to curtail many of the scenes out of fear of offending people.

The New Orleans Square attractions in particular show how the unique history and culture of the area was crafted. Out of conflict and a rich cultural background New Orleans Square was born. A world of enchantment, order, and romance. It's somewhat a look behind the curtain, but ends with a clear reinforcement that those tales are not the way forward. New Orleans Square provides a stark contrast with those two attractions. A better way.

When New Orleans Square was opened, Walt Disney famously quipped that it was like New Orleans "only cleaner!" Some accused Disneyland of "sanitizing," but ultimately it was escape.

A world without cares and troubles, where bad guys get their just rewards, where heros fight for right, where nature is just a Train or Boat ride away, where Tomorrow's progress is real today, where the best of times live on, where good triumphs evil. It was a reflection of a group of dreamers and optimists that looked excitedly to the future, but that would never forget the past.

That's Disneyland.

Star Wars Experience is nestled on a planet that has fallen on hard times and has been forgotten. Instead of progress helping them, progress has done exactly the opposite. The advent of superior space technology has left this world in a place of poverty, anarchy, and stuck in the past. Instead of escape to a better, more beautiful place, this is escape to a place without hope.

This land is built on the idea that life can suck.

You'll be able walk down a street not knowing who wants to hire you to smuggle contraband, who is scared of you, and who would rather see you dead.

There will be signs of poverty, authoritarian military activity, smugglers, and guerrilla warfare groups. Animal smells will waft in the air. Creatures will scurry around in the pipes (you'll here them). An eye will look up at you while using a drinking fountain.

Fights will break out in the streets. You won't be safe (from a story standpoint).

This is a place where technology has failed them, hope for tomorrow is found with aligning yourself with the right war faction, and where good doesn't always beat evil.

This is all very un-Disneyland Park. These stories will be awesome, but this is unprecedented. This is more than just a simple new land, this is a whole new vantage point to look at the world.

It says something about our society. In the 1950s and 1960s lands were created about hope, nostalgia, clear right vs. wrong, and escape. Today we're building a land that is all about ambiguity and struggle.

Many can say that this is well worth it, but I do think it's worth acknowledging there has been a philosophical shift. This is very different.

I'm just worried we may lose a bit of that optimism and escape that have always been so Disneyland. We'll see... ;)
Star Wars is a story dramatically told so there's moments of winning and losing but the whole point of the story is that the light side wins in the end. People love the bad guys because they're a part of that story and play their parts well but you can't possibly say that Star Wars isn't ultimately a wholesome uplifting story with great moral fabric. It's based on Campbell's hero's journey theories. Its themes resonate across all time and culture.
You're surely right that the method and level of theming make the uncomplicated nature of Disneyland look quaint and nostalgic in comparison, but the actual worthiness of Star Wars as philosophy next to the philosophy of Disneyland is not a problem and works just fine if you ask me.
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
:eek:

Don't let Disneyland hear you call it the worst park. :p


Depends which demo you ask. I'm sure there will be many 30-50+ years olds who will be shedding tears of joy upon entering the land. For a demo this is the escape they've been dreaming of since their teens.

I like the PoTC example, I wonder how you feel about the attractions we have that spill outside of the attraction into the land, like Shanghai?

This is for sure different. But the biggest question will always be - is different necessarily bad, or refreshing if done well? TBD.
It's true the content holds appeal, but isn't part of Disneyland's allure doing its own individual thing? It's adapted, Big Thunder and Indy, but it has largely stayed true to its core tenants.

We're on completely uncharted territory here. I still think this is a pretty terrible thing, but some people view this positively. Either way, I think at the very least this is a major evolution.

Good question! Shanghai represents the most modern park we've seen to date. The whole experience has been rethought for modern audiences. Pirates Cove in particular is more rough. Most people have pointed out just how massively different Shanghai Disneyland and Disneyland are; it's stuff like that draw the line. Less Nostalgia there too. Did you know Shanghai Disneyland is the only Disney Park in the chain to not feature an American Inspired section? I've been crafting a review of Shanghai Disneyland which will touch on some of those philosophical points.

Though it's coming slowly... ;)

Needless to say, I think there is a time and a place for the storytelling Star Wars Experience employs, (One could say Animal Kingdom is more like SWE than Disneyland) but that doesn't necissitate losing the unique identity of other Parks.

Disneyland has always been so successful because it's Disneyland.
This may seem odd, but I actually hope the new land isn't too, too immersive. I don't really have any interest in taking part in any public scene or role play. I'd love seeing actors performing, as long as they don't try too hard to get me involved.
This is a very valid concern. If you're interested, I'd head over to the SW Celebration thread in the Studios redevelopment section for the complete story.

The idea is you will get what you put into it. If you want a lot of character interactions, just contribute more. If you want less, just don't engage. The computer should be able to handle it.

Whether this works or not remains to be seen. It could be extremely intimidating for casual guests; I'm worried that only a few will participate.

It's intriguing nonetheless!

Star Wars is a story dramatically told so there's moments of winning and losing but the whole point of the story is that the light side wins in the end. People love the bad guys because they're a part of that story and play their parts well but you can't possibly say that Star Wars isn't ultimately a wholesome uplifting story with great moral fabric. It's based on Campbell's hero's journey theories. Its themes resonate across all time and culture.
You're surely right that the method and level of theming make the uncomplicated nature of Disneyland look quaint and nostalgic in comparison, but the actual worthiness of Star Wars as philosophy next to the philosophy of Disneyland is not a problem and works just fine if you ask me.
The land isn't a retelling of the story though; it's gonna be a mad world! Story Engine is going to let you do some crazy stuff.

You're also talking about the series that brought us Han Solo and Chewbacca. It's a little more ambiguous, and it's only getting more by each film!
 
D

Deleted member 107043

In the 1950s and 1960s lands were created about hope, nostalgia, clear right vs. wrong, and escape.

The audience intended to consume DL in the 50s was white middle class suburban Americans. Many Americans then (and to this day) didn't relate to the sanitized white Hollywood viewpoint of the world that DL represented because it's a world they were largely excluded from. So, while the basic themes of past, future, and fantasy are timeless, I don't agree that there's a static set of rules and restrictions established in 1955 that govern what is appropriate for Disneyland until the end of time.
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
The audience intended to consume DL in the 50s was white middle class suburban Americans. Many Americans then (and to this day) didn't relate to the sanitized white Hollywood viewpoint of the world that DL represented and have largely been excluded from. The basic themes of past, future, and fantasy are timeless, however I don't agree that there's a prescribed set of rules and restrictions established in 1955 that govern what is appropriate for Disneyland until the end of time.
I hear you, but at the same time Disneyland has largely been governed by those principals for 60 years. If the park didn't reasonate, why did it take so long for the company to abandon those tenants? That spirit of optimism, hope, and nostalgia have worked for Disneyland and have helped it be ingrained in the hearts of tens of millions.

It seems like the original intent worked quite well; is it worth losing that? If it hadn't worked, we wouldn't be on this forum.


I'm still worried about and upset about this. They're working with something irreplaceable, so anything done needs to be projects that keep the spirit alive.

Edit: To be clear, the park has rightly moved beyond some of the inaccurate/unacceptable 1950s concepts and traits. What hasn't changed is that hopeful optimism. That's what I'm talking about; new guests are still learning to love those ideals 60 years later. Not many works of literature or film can claim that.
 
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D

Deleted member 107043

If the park didn't reasonate, why did it take so long for the company to abandon those tenants?

You might be assuming that everybody loves Disneyland. Certainly Disney isn't having any trouble attracting customers, but SW Land will undoubtedly attract new fans, which is important if the park is to remain relevant for future generations.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

What hasn't changed is that hopeful optimism. That's what I'm talking about; new guests are still learning to love those ideals 60 years later.

Does SW Land really do away with that or does it add another layer to an already exceptional entertainment experience?

That's what I'm talking about; new guests are still learning to love those ideals 60 years later. Not many works of literature or film can claim that.

To be fair films and literature are static while Walt Disney always intended DL to be a work in progress, not to mention that there are literally thousands of past film, television, and literary works that attract new fans every day.
 

Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
I'm surprised this fell so low, so I'm going to bump it. This land is Horribly placed. This land could not be in a worse park. This is antithetical to all the values and ideas that made Disneyland great. They're selling this poor park's soul.

This isn't even about IP, this is about tone. What a mess!
I'm 100% in agreement with everything you say here especially after Star Wars Celebration. From what the Imagineers and Lucasfilm artists were saying, this is a completely new kind of land with levels of interactivity that are unprecedented. On it's own, it sounds spectacular, especially for a park that's reinventing its identity like DHS. It also fits the celebration of movies part of its identity that's being retained. However, Disneyland is not only the LAST park that needs an identity reinvention, but it completely and utterly clashes with the rest of the park. Of all the poor decisions Disney has made in the past few years, this is easily the worst and most lasting.
 

britain

Well-Known Member
I think the imagineers knew that this would be substantially different than the rest of DL, and thus the great lengths being made to hide it from the rest of the park experience. Imagine the furor if this space port was actually along the shores of the river! Or if it completely replaced Tomorrowland!
 

The_Mesh_Hatter

Well-Known Member
But Indy didn't open till 40 years... ;)

I must be the minority that thinks Indy is so out of place at Disneyland. It's a fun ride, but it sucked the life out of the rest of Adventureland and turned it into a stroller park.

It's a parasite on an otherwise charming land. Can't help but feel SWL will have a similar effect.
 

ctrlaltdel

Well-Known Member
I think the imagineers knew that this would be substantially different than the rest of DL, and thus the great lengths being made to hide it from the rest of the park experience. Imagine the furor if this space port was actually along the shores of the river! Or if it completely replaced Tomorrowland!
I know we've had this discussion before, but I think it's tough to argue that SWL isn't in the best possible spot to affect the rest of the park the least. They really did the most they could to keep it hidden and somewhat separate, while also taking out the least amount of stuff. But I understand that the mere fact that it is located in Disneyland is bothersome to many.
 

Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
I think the imagineers knew that this would be substantially different than the rest of DL, and thus the great lengths being made to hide it from the rest of the park experience. Imagine the furor if this space port was actually along the shores of the river! Or if it completely replaced Tomorrowland!
In all honesty, the Imagineers making the best out of the bad situation Iger handed them is the best thing about all of this. Despite being shortened, the RoA improvements look very nice. I do have concerns about the Fantasmic! changes, but most things seem to handled as well as they can be. But even so, it still doesn't full make up for the monumental culture clash this will cause. From the moment it opens, SWL will become the star of the park and detract from everything else which go's completely against one of Disneyland's core philosophies.
IMG_1545.JPG
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I must be the minority that thinks Indy is so out of place at Disneyland. It's a fun ride, but it sucked the life out of the rest of Adventureland and turned it into a stroller park.

It's a parasite on an otherwise charming land. Can't help but feel SWL will have a similar effect.

In my opinion, Star Tours ruined Tomorrowland more than Indy ruined Adventureland, not that I even believe Indy ruined Adventureland. I think the former is a worse offense.
 

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