New Disneyland Parking Garage and Transportation Hub

[Darkbeer1]

While at the park today, came up with a solution regarding Cm's and catching the OCTA/LA Metro buses. In the secure area, plenty of special gates that CM's can enter exit at, just have the Cm enter the Guest area,and take the bridge to the new Transportation Hub, and catch the bus.

When coming into the park, have a special CM entrance over at one side (say the north side near the Building that will support the Security CM's (aka bathrooms, break room, etc.).

Seems simple to do, and will get the CM's to the bus stops.

FYI, Disney parked both Pumbaa and GardenWalk today. And used all 6 levels of M&F Structure, and were sending folks to Toy Story in the afternoon that tried to park at M&F.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

For ADA compliance, the sidewalk would need to be 6' wide. The sidewalks along the east side of Harbor Blvd appear to be 8' wide and this path would likely need to be at least that wide for capacity; for a landscaped buffer to make it a welcoming environment, they would need even more room, likely 3-4' on each side

Looking at the McDonald's site, it doesn't look like they can add an 8' pedestrian path without removing the entire line of parking on the south side. That means losing 30% of the parking capacity (26 of 87 spaces) at one of the busiest McDonald's in the country. No matter how many incidental customers that sidewalk may bring, that's going to be a very tough sell by Disney

Similarly, Disney may allow the adjacent hotels to connect a "back door" to their new walkway, but it would require them to lose revenue-generating rooms and/or parking to make that connection. Just because someone lets you make a connection to their property doesn't mean it's a palatable option for you

As it currently stands, that segment of Harbor Blvd is one of the most walkable streets in southern California (which may say more about the general state of things than about Harbor Blvd specifically). It has a lot of elements that urban planners refer to as "complete streets" and is a welcoming environment, despite the heavy usage of the road and the excessive number of driveway entrances interrupting the sidewalks.

As a transportation engineer, Disney's proposal to force all Harbor Blvd pedestrians to the new security site seems misguided at best. Any guest staying on Harbor Blvd (no matter how far north or south) will be forced to go east to go west to the parks, adding about a quarter mile to their trip. Good pedestrian design seeks to make the most direct route possible, which this certainly does not do

I know that Anaheim has different priorities than more dense urban areas that deal with a lot of pedestrians, but I'm really surprised they're even giving this serious consideration. I work for pedestrian-friendly jurisdictions and I'd get laughed out of the room if I suggested something like this; even as a temporary detour this would be a tough sell. There is more than enough room at the existing Harbor transit plaza for them to build an adequate security checkpoint for pedestrian arrivals alongside the proposed bridge/ramp, so I'm not sure why this proposal has made it this far.

I think it also opens them up pretty easily to an ADA lawsuit since it adds so much distance to the most direct route. I don't think that requiring 2 buses/shuttles to cover that distance would fly in court, especially since boarding and alighting is significantly more complicated for people with mobility impairments. ADA is vague about this specific type of scenario, but it typically encourages the accessible route to be the most direct route whenever possible

I'm also curious about the fate of the existing traffic signal; it appears that it will remain for the ADA and cast shuttles to make the left turns. If the signal remains, it will be very difficult to discourage pedestrians from crossing there (even if they remove all sidewalks along the west side of the street), which could make the intersection even more unsafe than it is now if there's no marked crosswalk. Short of removing the signal and adding a median with a fence in that area, people are going to keep crossing there

I don't fault Disney for this proposal at all. They want to serve their guests, the vast majority of whom will arrive at the parking garage; pedestrians aren't a major concern for them. I'm just surprised that the City is going along with it. It just doesn't seem to be good urban design, for a variety of reasons

Thank you for talking some sense. I'm stunned that Disney thinks that guests will be content to hike a long distance before they spend an entire day standing and walking in environment that does not offer a lot of opportunities to sit (I'm comparing this to the park environment when I was growing up in the '60s).
I see more reactive planning on Disney's part that proactive. They dropped the ball on developing the Pumbaa parking structure, even though it was in the Master Plan back in the Westcot days.Now guests are paying the price and CMs aren't doing so good, either.
Meh.

 

[Ismael Flores]

This is part that bothers me most about the plan.

I doubt that it would add a quarter mile to the walk. The distance from The proposed resort gateway on Disney way up the new walkway thru security and over the bridge is only .33 of a mile.

If the motels add a back gate guests don't have to walk down to Disney way so the distance is greatly reduced.

Also the slight walk east is irrelevant because as of now guests staying at the back end hotel rooms have to walk the whole distance of the hotel property to get to harbor while the guests staying at the hotel rooms in front near harbor have a shorter walk.
The new proposed path would just reverse that and now the guests at the back of the hotel would have less of a walk while the ones staying at the front rooms have to walk through hotel ground to gateway.


No matter what the gateway on harbor is moving because they have plans for the property used right now for possible park expansion. Supposedly a new gate will be near the bridge at northern side of existing shuttle area.

As an example the distance from the Grand legacy of walking on harbor to new gate is about .25 mile and that is from the hotel driveway entrance.
guest staying at the back of property rooms have to walk about .34miles

so basically the guests at back rooms of hotel have to walk length of hotel property, cross to west sidewalk of harbor (same distance as length of new bridge from security point to gate). Then they have to walk north on harbor (same distance as walking from hotel backgate to the bridge access point) these guests already have a longer walk then guests staying at front of hotel now.

With the new proposal the whole thing gets reversed guests at front rooms now have to walk thru hotel grounds to back gate, walk north and then walk on bridge. This is where the additional walking distance is added to the hotel guests staying closest to harbor since they need to walk east on hotel property. The property length according to google is about .10 of a mile. Again that is for guests staying in room closests to harbor. If I remember correctly many of those hotels don't even have rooms all the way in front of property because many have business in that area so that .10 of a mile is actually less

 

[FerretAfros]

I doubt that it would add a quarter mile to the walk. The distance from The proposed resort gateway on Disney way up the new walkway thru security and over the bridge is only .33 of a mile.

The motels along Harbor Blvd appear to be about 610' ( or 0.12 miles) long from the back of the sidewalk to the back of the building. Considering that the proposed security checkpoint would require backtracking that distance before turning around and covering that same distance in the other direction (along with moving through the checkpoint itself), I think it's reasonable to say it's about 0.25mi of total distance added. Remember the parks are the destination, not the security checkpoint, so any eastward movement (even on hotel grounds) is distance in the wrong direction that will have to be made up later

It's probably too obvious, but I think I've come up with a reasonable and elegant solution: By its very nature, the bridge and walkway will be elevated above ground level. Why not use that ground level space right at Harbor Blvd for an additional security checkpoint, with some vertical circulation (likely 2 escalators, 3 elevators, and stairs) up to the walkway above? It would keep everything on Disney's property and would still allow easy access from the existing facilities along Harbor Blvd.

Assuming the walkway will slope at a more-or-less constant rate to provide 14' vertical clearance over the road (16' clearance in the center lanes for trucks), the first 260' back from Harbor will at have least 8' clear (typical ceiling height) giving them over 22,000 SF of usable space down there (nearly the size of the Soarin' building for reference, or about 2/3 the size of the proposed Eastern Gateway security checkpoint)

Yes, it would have some staffing and maintenance needs, but if Disney is so desperate for the additional theme park space (which would also need to be staffed an maintained), I think it's reasonable to expect they could operate another checkpoint here. If not, they should be forced to keep a new ground-level checkpoint on the existing Harbor transit plaza, which would also require more staffing. Disney has gotten some great deals from the City recently; it's time that the City pushes back and gets something reasonable from Disney

I imagine Disney has plans for this space (World of Disney east?) that they haven't announced yet. It's crazy to think that Disney spent over $20M on the parcel to only use it as a walkway. So why not get a little more creative with the solution?

 

[Ismael Flores]

The motels along Harbor Blvd appear to be about 610' ( or 0.12 miles) long from the back of the sidewalk to the back of the building. Considering that the proposed security checkpoint would require backtracking that distance before turning around and covering that same distance in the other direction (along with moving through the checkpoint itself), I think it's reasonable to say it's about 0.25mi of total distance added. Remember the parks are the destination, not the security checkpoint, so any eastward movement (even on hotel grounds) is distance in the wrong direction that will have to be made up later

True but wouldn't that just be a small percentage of the actual number of guest. Many of those hotels don't even have rooms at the far west side of the property and those that do have room right up against harbor consist of a small number.
In theory only those guest staying further west of the properties would walk that distance as the rooms move further east the extra length of walk diminishes. With the new design any guest staying at the back rooms would walk the same distance they would walk right now.
At the moment guest staying at the east end of the hotels right now walk the whole distance of the property so their walk is already .012 miles longer than those staying closer to harbor. The new change really only affects those staying near Harbor side now. they will be the ones that get to walk the .012 miles that some guests walk now already plus an additional .012.
So the increase in footstep overall to guests is .012 We are talking about a small increase in footsteps to a small population of guests.

That is still a lot less walking for those guests than the ones walking from Katella which will now have to walk east to the new portal.
To me it really is a non issue for those hotels on harbor or injust don't see that extra walking of much of a problem but that's just me and I like walking even with a cane
guest that just don't feel like walking the difference of .012 miles will just have to request a room at back of property.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

f the motels add a back gate guests don't have to walk down to Disney way so the distance is greatly reduced.

What about the properties south of Disney Way?

 

[Darkbeer1]

What about the properties south of Disney Way?

Minimal Impact, those on Harbor will just follow the Way Sign to head to the Pedestrian Entrance next to the Pummba Structure.

Those on Clementine and east, such as the new JW Marriott, old condo-Style Residence Inn, Motel 6 and others get a bit of shorter walk, as the will walk to the traffic light next to the Anaheim Garden walk, and cross the street to the new walkway, saving them a bit of walking as compared to today.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

But those on Harbor will still need to walk east to go west.

 

[Darkbeer1]

I have always said there would be winners and losers in this enhancement.

Same with the new western Security Checks. Now the Paradise Pier Hotels and non-Disney properties that used to use the GCH hallways as a shortcut must now walk straight north to the ESPN Zone and its security check.

So more walking (about 1/5th of a mile).

But then most folks are a winner, with now over 40 security checks that can be manned in 5 different locations spreads out the crowds and creates shorter waits and smoother processing.

And you could call the locals that want to visit DtD only a loser,less ways to enter Downtown Disney, and needing to go through the security check. I saw a group decide to not enter due to the security check. (Maybe they had something they weren't supposed to have???)

But I have to agree with others, we are looking at a very small part of a day of walking, and still, those Hotels/Motels in the area on Harbor, Manchester and Disney Way are still the closest to the parks either way.

 

[tikiphil]

And once you get north enough to the Fairfield, the walk will actually be shorter for those folks going down Manchester to the new transit plaza and security screening area. The new Courtyard and existing Howard Johnson's become even more convenient than the Fairfield, and the new Holiday Inn and the adjacent Quality Inn on Manchester will see their accessibility to Disneyland improve greatly and they'll likely be able to charge higher rates once the Eastern Gateway is open.

How is this a shorter walk?

 

[tikiphil]

Looking at the McDonald's site, it doesn't look like they can add an 8' pedestrian path without removing the entire line of parking on the south side. That means losing 30% of the parking capacity (26 of 87 spaces) at one of the busiest McDonald's in the country. No matter how many incidental customers that sidewalk may bring, that's going to be a very tough sell by Disney

Actually, the "pedestrian path of travel" presented by Disney is on Camelot Inn land - not McDonald's. McDonald's property doesn't even reach the "Potential access point" - Fairfield Inn land is between the two. And even then, the Fairfield Inn property is diagonal to the security gateway - not adjacent.

 

[NobodyElse]

Actually, the "pedestrian path of travel" presented by Disney is on Camelot Inn land - not McDonald's. McDonald's property doesn't even reach the "Potential access point" - Fairfield Inn land is between the two. And even then, the Fairfield Inn property is diagonal to the security gateway - not adjacent.
View attachment 179954

I believe that's their vague, hypothetical, general pathway. Likely, what they're really showing is that they're willing to open up access in the "orange circle" area. If their friends and neighbors can work out a way to get people there, they'll grant fairly direct passage to the new security check area.

 

[Curious Constance]

Thank you for talking some sense. I'm stunned that Disney thinks that guests will be content to hike a long distance before they spend an entire day standing and walking in environment that does not offer a lot of opportunities to sit (I'm comparing this to the park environment when I was growing up in the '60s).
I see more reactive planning on Disney's part that proactive. They dropped the ball on developing the Pumbaa parking structure, even though it was in the Master Plan back in the Westcot days.Now guests are paying the price and CMs aren't doing so good, either.
Meh.

If they take my short walk across the street away, and try to make me walk ALLLLL that way around to get back and forth to the hotel, I'll probably not stay on Harbor anymore, and either stay on site (which means I'd not make the trip down very often at all because the resort hotels are ridiculously priced) or stay somewhere that has a free shuttle to the park.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Well, your other options are limited. As for Shuttles, most Hotels/Motels are required to use the ART Shuttle system, at $5 per day (a bit less with multi-day passes), only the Candy Cane Inn and Majestic Gardens Hotel have a grandfathered free shuttle.

The PPH walk to the parks has increased due to the new Security Check Stations, basically you need to walk straight north to the ESPN Zone, and then head east through Downtown Disney. That new walk is about the same as the new walks projected for those Hotels near the Eastern Gateway Project.

 

[Curious Constance]

I don't think I'd ever stay at PPH again because the walk is farther than it is on Harbor and it costs about 2-3 times the money. We're going back this summer and it'll have been almost three years since our last trip. I'm really glad we'll still be able to walk from Harbor. I love going to Disneyland, as do my kids, but I'm really bummed the Harbor option won't be there for our next trip. I could afford the Disneyland hotels if I wanted to save for them, but I just can't bring myself to do it. It feels like such a huge waste of money to spend that kind of money on a room to sleep in. We once stayed at the PPH (ten years ago) for five night for right about $1000, and the Disneyland Hotel (about 8 years ago) for five nights for $1500. How I wish those prices would come back today! Five nights now is $3000. Ugh. I just can't.

 

[Texas84]

Yeah, this is going to great walking back to your Harbor hotel right after running a half marathon.

 

[Ismael Flores]

But those on Harbor will still need to walk east to go west.

We had all been focusing on the hotels on small motels along harbor and the slight change in walking distance but like i mentioned previously i think that the most impact would be hotel guests coming from Katella. like you stated above those will have the additional .24 miles of walking added to their walk.

Darkbeer is correct that no matter what is done some guests that had shorter walks with see some minor to major increase in walkingwhile others that used to have longer walks now have shortened their trips including all the guests staying on existing and future hotels on Disney way and those motels that decide to open a back gate connecting to the pathway.

 

[TP2000]

How is this a shorter walk?
View attachment 179953

I wasn't really thinking about it from the perspective of the walk from the corner of Harbor Blvd. outside Mimi's Cafe. I was thinking about it from the perspective of your actual hotel room at the HoJo's or Courtyard or the new Holiday Inn along Manchester. It seems to be a comparable walk overall, and a much shorter walk before you are in the Disney Bubble. A lot of that is psychological though, especially the process of crossing over busy Harbor Blvd. via the current crosswalk/intersection.

Although if you are camped out on the Harbor Blvd. sidewalk with the homeless folks in the Harbor bus stops, then yeah, it's going to be a longer walk to the Eastern Gateway entrance than you currently have.

 

[TP2000]

Here's an interesting article from today's OC Register about the brand new Country Inn that is just about to open across the street from the Eastern Gateway property. The manager of the new hotel is thrilled about its location, as the Eastern Gateway makes the newer hotels off Harbor (and hotels yet to be built at GardenWalk) suddenly more attractive and closer to Disneyland.

A quote from the manager...
“We are in the perfect location. It’s unbelievable,” Hattendorf said. “Everyone is excited and anticipating the growth of this area.”

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/anaheim-738997-resort-inn.html

A flick through those photos shows that the new Country Inn has dramatically superior and fresher amenities than anything currently on the Harbor Strip across from Disneyland. I'd never heard of Country Inn, but apparently it's a division of Radisson Hotels, as Radisson's version of a Marriott Courtyard or Hilton's Hampton Inn.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Here's an interesting article from today's OC Register about the brand new Country Inn that is just about to open across the street from the Eastern Gateway property. The manager of the new hotel is thrilled about its location, as the Eastern Gateway makes the newer hotels off Harbor (and hotels yet to be built at GardenWalk) suddenly more attractive and closer to Disneyland.

A quote from the manager...
“We are in the perfect location. It’s unbelievable,” Hattendorf said. “Everyone is excited and anticipating the growth of this area.”

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/anaheim-738997-resort-inn.html

A flick through those photos shows that the new Country Inn has dramatically superior and fresher amenities than anything currently on the Harbor Strip across from Disneyland. I'd never heard of Country Inn, but apparently it's a division of Radisson Hotels, as Radisson's version of a Marriott Courtyard or Hilton's Hampton Inn.

It looks a lot better than Paradise Pier Hotel and without all the hokey kid friendly decor.