Disney Monorails go Officially Automated?

[MyMartianRomance]

Probably safer than Google's cars could be. I mean if someone is in there, they can do manual override if the computer fails. The newer google cars have no manual override, which is the scary part of them. Because let's face it, how many of us has had a computer or phone for several years and it still works as great as the day it was brought home?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Probably safer than Google's cars could be. I mean if someone is in there, they can do manual override if the computer fails. The newer google cars have no manual override, which is the scary part of them. Because let's face it, how many of us has had a computer or phone for several years and it still works as great as the day it was brought home?

Google's autonomous vehicles have already proven themselves to be safer than human driven vehicles. Automated transit on such a small system is even more proven.

 

[MyMartianRomance]

Google's autonomous vehicles have already proven themselves to be safer than human driven vehicles. Automated transit on such a small system is even more proven.

You do realize none of Google cars are five years old and very few have been "operated" by anyone besides Google Employees? When technology ages, its starts failing. Put some wear and tear on a google car without a google engineer nearby and suddenly either a passenger or someone on the street is dead, because the car braking system just failed and there was nothing you could have done since there was no manual override.

 

[lazyboy97o]

You do realize none of Google cars are five years old and very few have been "operated" by anyone besides Google Employees? When technology ages, its starts failing. Put some wear and tear on a google car without a google engineer nearby and suddenly either a passenger or someone on the street is dead, because the car braking system just failed and there was nothing you could have done since there was no manual override.

Human drivers killed 80 people today in the United States. Be it monorails or cars, the automated systems are safer.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Human drivers killed 80 people today in the United States. Be it monorails or cars, the automated systems are safer.

I would trust a trained chimpanzee over human (male) drivers.

 

[Runion]

I am finding this topic interesting.... Some years ago the bean counters said they would never go to automation because they wanted the guests to feel 'SAFE' with a cast member at the controls. This was confirmed when a poll had been taken asking how safe a guest would feel if there were no cast member operating the monorails....
BUT.... in light of how the bean counters are at trying to get that very last penny, cutting every single guest perk that they can find, raising park fees, does it make sense to you that they will spend all this money to add AUTOMATION into the 12 monorails, which are rather old these days, go through the extensive testing to verify that Automation works and then KEEP PAYING an operator???? This does not work in the formula for skimping and making more pennies... What makes more sense is that the Disney Company is looking at Las Vegas and their automated monorails, which have NO DRIVERS, and are considering the exact same plan.

This can be done easily but it will be interesting because if an Automated vehicle, such as a MONORAIL sees a problem, depending on how important the problem is, it may just STOP right where it is, and this can be mid beam. This is a safety result. If an automated system does not know it is safe to run, it stops, they don't keep moving to the station blindly.

Sort of like the Google self drive cars, they have been doing ok but recently had an accident, no reason explained why yet...

What has not been discussed is if the newly added automation will incorporate the MAYPO system. As far As I know, as long as MAYPO has not been overridden, it has not had an accident. If MAYPO is not used in the new automation, then they are depending on the new technology to prevent a sudden stop encounter with another object, and I would hope the new automation would be able to tell if the track is switched correctly or if it is about to run off a track that is not switched to continue on, IE, run off the rail.

There is a lot to this technology and I find it very interesting but I also find it extremely risky because automation has it's questionable sides too. The automation can think it is performing its task when the reality is, it is operating in a manner that it was not supposed to, run into another object????

Interesting conversation.

 

[gsimpson]

I strongly doubt that the system is using any type of artificial intelligence, the system is more likely using a more simple and fairly configurable block and interlock system, which is somewhat of an advancement/off shoot of the MAPO system. Essentially the system will slow or stop a vehicle entering a "block" if there is another vehicle already in the block or if there is opposing traffic (someone coming the other way) in the next block after that. That is a system that has been used by freight rail, and light rail, for decades. The lights you see next to rail road tracks are controlled by interlock controllers that use "electracode" to send status info down the rail down the rail from one block to the next, if there is a train in the block drop to red, if there is an open rail (so you aren't getting the code) drop to red, if the next signal is red drop to yellow, if there is something shorting the rails (i.e. a train) drop to red, if an upcoming switch is not in correct position drop to red. It is a surprisingly simple system to understand and implement and if done correctly can be intrinsically safe - the normal state is everything stop and if and only if all conditions are met then allow movement. Essentially rail engineers don't "make decisions" they just obey the signals. The vast majority of train wrecks are caused by at grade interference (can't happen in an elevated monorail) or engineer error. Less than 1% are caused by signalling system errors. The automated system should be substantially more safe if done using the standards used in the transit industry.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I am finding this topic interesting.... Some years ago the bean counters said they would never go to automation because they wanted the guests to feel 'SAFE' with a cast member at the controls. This was confirmed when a poll had been taken asking how safe a guest would feel if there were no cast member operating the monorails....
BUT.... in light of how the bean counters are at trying to get that very last penny, cutting every single guest perk that they can find, raising park fees, does it make sense to you that they will spend all this money to add AUTOMATION into the 12 monorails, which are rather old these days, go through the extensive testing to verify that Automation works and then KEEP PAYING an operator???? This does not work in the formula for skimping and making more pennies... What makes more sense is that the Disney Company is looking at Las Vegas and their automated monorails, which have NO DRIVERS, and are considering the exact same plan.

Disney was basically told by the federal government that the monorails needed to be automated.

Sort of like the Google self drive cars, they have been doing ok but recently had an accident, no reason explained why yet...

The program and its human minder wrongly assumed that the bus would yield.

What has not been discussed is if the newly added automation will incorporate the MAYPO system. As far As I know, as long as MAYPO has not been overridden, it has not had an accident. If MAYPO is not used in the new automation, then they are depending on the new technology to prevent a sudden stop encounter with another object, and I would hope the new automation would be able to tell if the track is switched correctly or if it is about to run off a track that is not switched to continue on, IE, run off the rail.

MAPO is just the name given to a specific system, it does not describe all blocking systems.

There is a lot to this technology and I find it very interesting but I also find it extremely risky because automation has it's questionable sides too. The automation can think it is performing its task when the reality is, it is operating in a manner that it was not supposed to, run into another object????

These types of issues have already been figured out at other automated transit systems.

 

[GrumpyFan]

I was at WDW last week and saw them testing on the express line. Just wondering if anyone knows the status of this project and when it might be going live?

And, for the sake of entering the discussion, I am in favor of the automation. I think once it's implemented, it will improve efficiency and possibly even reduce maintenance and downtime of the aged fleet.

 

[DisneyJoe]

I assume that some type of override will be needed when a wheelchair/ECV needs to be loaded/unloaded from the monorail - as they need to manually put a ramp in place. It may be different if they didn't need the ramp.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Probably safer than Google's cars could be. I mean if someone is in there, they can do manual override if the computer fails. The newer google cars have no manual override, which is the scary part of them. Because let's face it, how many of us has had a computer or phone for several years and it still works as great as the day it was brought home?

That is the problem with having a human as well as a computer. The death of the pilot back a few years ago was because a human bypassed the computer. Had they not been able to override it, the chances are quite good that the young man would still be with us. I'm old and frankly have little understanding of how those things really work and how the parameters are determined, but, automated systems are in wide use everywhere and we don't even think about it. Many have already been pointed out in this thread. Test Track, Dinosaur, People Mover and the elevator on ToT. to just name a few. To be honest I never even question it anymore. I couldn't tell you if there was a pilot in the cab or not. I've never looked for them or seen them. I'm afraid that I have no choice but to totally trust modern times and although everything has an element of risk to it, it is much smaller with a system that only reacts as programed. Humans are way more prone to screwing things up and making the wrong decision then computers do.

 

[GrumpyFan]

I assume that some type of override will be needed when a wheelchair/ECV needs to be loaded/unloaded from the monorail - as they need to manually put a ramp in place. It may be different if they didn't need the ramp.

From what I've read, the only part that's actually being automated is the drive and location awareness functions. Load/unload operations will still rely heavily on operators as the trains sit slightly above the load platforms and must have someone to place and remove the ramps.

If I had to guess, It will probably work much like most roller coasters do, in that an operator has to push a button to declare the train is ready for door close/dispatch before it can leave. So, it won't be totally automated, like you see at the Orlando airport and most others.

Essentially, I would see it working as follows:
1) Train pulls into a station
2) Opens doors for exit
3) Optionally, opens opposite doors for entry
4) Sounds door closing message, Closes exit doors
5) Waits for operator to push clear/dispatch button
6) Sounds door closing message, Closes doors
7) Train dispatches

Once step 5 occurs, the train will then resume automation functions, start checking for clearance, location of other trains, etc, and will then communicate with the master system that it's ready for departure. I would assume the master controller will then advise on actual departure clearance, that is, unless the systems are designed as standalone whereby they function autonomously in a similar fashion as the current human operator.
Can anybody speak to this? Will each train function autonomously or will they rely on a master controller (system) for dispatching and movement?

 

[JIMINYCR]

5) Ever see anyone drive? It's no wonder Google is pushing hard for automated cars. It can and will work. It's already happening. I'd rather trust computers than these people on cell phones, shaving, putting on makeup, and being generally aggressive.

Maybe if they get the Monorails and cars to work efficiently and safely... we'll get computer driven scooters. No more issues with poorly driven scooters crashing into guests heels

 

[scottnj1966]

I would be happy if just the braking could be computer controlled. Some of this pilots just don't have the "feel" to slow and stop then smoothly.

 

[Darth Figment]

I bet pretty soon there will be no "live " cast members at Disney world. Everyone that works there will be a robot . Why pay someone to say "have a magical day" when a robot will say it for free .. for the next 100 yrs. The robot doesn't need 401k, a pay check, health insurance . DW is really great at making them look real, who would really know .

 

[Sonic Sunglasses]

Maybe if they get the Monorails and cars to work efficiently and safely... we'll get computer driven scooters. No more issues with poorly driven scooters crashing into guests heels

They'll need to install that autopilot on strollers, too.

 

[thomas998]

If you flew to WDW there is a good chance you plane landed using automation. Personally, if I were to be concerned about using a computer to control my mode of transportation I'd be far more worried about the airplane than a monorail.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland

The autoland has been in development for decades, and is really only used when visible landings are limited... I have a lot more faith in that than I do in Disney engineers creating some autopilot for a monorail when they can't even keep the Yeti functioning for more than a few days at a time.

 

[thomas998]

Automating the Monorail, in my view as legal consultant in advanced technologies and artificial intelligence, do not consider it a problem, it is no more dangerous than a human driver and no less efficient. Automation is the future for years and one of the dreams of Mr. Walter Elias Disney. EPCOT not forget it was an automated futuristic city ... and we are talking about an idea of the 50s and early 60s and then automatic lines already existed.

The fact that a computer pilote just a monorail or a railroad and efficient depends solely on driving indicators which it is programmed. The necessary indicators would be only a few:

- GPS positioning beacons each Monorail
- GPS positioning beacons each station
- Sensors front and rear proximity of each Monorail to prevent shock
- Sensors maximum speed limit by taking the route sections
- Laser sensors door control presence to know when to stop people getting in and out
- Recognition sensors traffic lights to cross, incorporating new monorail to the lines, etc ...​

The rest would only be putting the units into operation that may be required as necessary and set the flow speed, stops, distances between vehicles.

It is safe and there would be no problem for not wearing driver, everything would be centralized from the central monorail. If there is a mechanical or software error it is like now ... the monorail stops and have to fix it. But that is not dependent on a machine that drive it are matters outside.

Forgive me !!!

That might be all you need if it were a closed and controlled loop... But the monorail tracks have tracks that switch, which if I recall is the reason they had the fatal monorail accident in the past where someone switched the tracks and because it was dark no one could tell until it was too late. How will the autopilot know that the track is there? That would be a whole new level of sensors and developing a optic system that could see if the tracks in front were there and were pointed in the right direction.

As for using GPS, that could be a problem in that GPS can be spoofed from outsiders and if you wanted to screw with a monorail system what better way than simply driving near a track jamming the GPS and then watching the monorail computer have a nervous breakdown when it has no clue where it is.

In the end my family doesn't really care if they have drivers anymore or not sense they stopped letting you ride up front.

 

[thomas998]

Google's autonomous vehicles have already proven themselves to be safer than human driven vehicles. Automated transit on such a small system is even more proven.

What statistics are you looking at? Last I read it the self driving cars were actually less safe than human cars, they only perform perfectly when they are in a controlled environment which is not what you have in the real world.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The autoland has been in development for decades, and is really only used when visible landings are limited... I have a lot more faith in that than I do in Disney engineers creating some autopilot for a monorail when they can't even keep the Yeti functioning for more than a few days at a time.

Disney is using a Thales system, not an in-house solution.

What statistics are you looking at? Last I read it the self driving cars were actually less safe than human cars, they only perform perfectly when they are in a controlled environment which is not what you have in the real world.

Waymo publishes accident reports as do others in the field. What throughs off the statistics is that the vast majority of incidents are caused by others but some like to calculate these as though it is the car's fault. Waymo, Uber and others are also operating in real world conditions with self driving taxis available in Singapore, Pittsburgh and now San Francisco.