Did Walt steal the idea of mickey

Woody13

New Member
WeLComeHomE OKW said:
You seem to know alot about Mr. Disney. I have been wanting to do some more reading on his life. What are the top 3 books on his life? Or the must haves?

Thanks in advance!

Wow, only 3 books! That's a tough one, but here are my picks:

How to Be Like Walt: Capturing the Disney Magic Every Day of Your Life By Pat Williams

Walt Disney: An American Original By Bob Thomas

Disney: The First 100 Years By Dave Smith, and Steven Clark


:wave:
 

ctwhalerman

New Member
It was very common (and still is) for entertainment entrepreneurs to steal things from other people. Warner's created Porky Pig only because of the popularity of Disney's "The Three Little Pigs," and even released their cartoons under the name "Merry Melodies," eerily similar to Disney's "Silly Symphonies."
That said, I do not think there were any famous cartoon mice in 1926-27, and Disney just took his form from Oswald and placed it in the form of another small animal. Nothing unethical there. (look at his dealings with his unions for some examples of ruthless treatments)
 

kcnole

Well-Known Member
Mickey is so much better than Oswald. Can you imagine if all the sayings were, "Remember, it all began with a rabbit." and we had statues of Walt with a rabbit?
 

Woody13

New Member
kcnole said:
Mickey is so much better than Oswald. Can you imagine if all the sayings were, "Remember, it all began with a rabbit." and we had statues of Walt with a rabbit?
Rabbits are cute and furry little mammals. Mice are dirty little rodents. :wave:
 

Tigger1988

Well-Known Member
I think this rumor started from a show on PBS. Some man claimed to have a toy mouse made in 1926 named MICKY, so the host went all over the country researching this myth that there was a Micky before Mickey. In the 1920's mice we're popular characters in most cartoons, and they all looked alike. I'd suggest trying to find the show on PBS.
 

3IAlienKid

Member
originally posted by Buford
creatively, Walt did not steal Mickey from anyone else as he created Oswald.....
originally posted by Woody13 in response to Buford
Artists are free to violate the law?
I don't get it. How is what he did violating the law? In any field, whether by inspiration, competition, or angry reaction, people take ideas all the time and make modifications (or if you prefer, "rip-off") around the confines of the copyright, thus making it their own property. Regardless of one's opinions on whether or not Mickey is an Oswald rip-off, seems to me Disney had every legal right to do what he did.

The law has a funny relationship with ethics. Ideally, ethics helps fuel inspiration for the creation of law. Yet time and time again, the law is abused by some for unethical gain. Mintz had every legal right to do what he did. But I have to believe that given the secretive way he exercised this legal right and eventually notified his product's creator, he knew it was misleading, underhanded, and dishonest, legal or not.

In the same way, I must reluctantly grant that one can speculate and debate that Mickey was born of unethically vengeful motivations by it's creator, and you might even have a convincing case. However, I don't think I can agree that Mickey's creation was a violation of the law.
 

JLW11Hi

Well-Known Member
Artists are free to violate the law? :wave:

well, I was going to say yes, but regardless of whether they are free to "violate the law" or not, it happens. It happens all the time. That's art. Appropriate, steal, homage, whatever you may call it, using other people's works as a source is a very common happening in the world of art. Its been done, especially ever since the "pop" art movement of the 60s and subsequent post modern movements. Its when you start making money off these images and mass producing it that it becomes a concern. Copywrite infringement can be complicated. Also, you need to take into consideration how close to the original "source" the images appear.

There's a large piece here at the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis done by a guy who juxtaposes side by side images from Walt Disney World and Nazi Germany. Its quite alarming. And I doubt that if Disney had any say in the matter that it would still be in the gallery. Of course, they were probably his own photographs.

As for Walt stealing the idea of Mickey, well..if you are talking about the design of the character, then, yeah. Mickey, Felix the Cat, Oswald, Bosko, Foxy, Bimbo from the Betty Boop cartoons, all these characters were based on the simple black body with a white mask design. For animator's purposes at that time, in the early, developing days of animation, it served everyone well. The design was simple, straight forward, and easy to re-draw. I wouldn't doubt that even these designs were taken out of the early comic strips of the time, like, probably Krazy Kat.

But if you are talking about Mickey's entire persona, well, I really find it hard to distinguish what Disney had Mickey do in his early cartoons with anything that any of those other characters did in their cartoons. The plots were thin, personalities were there, but very vague (usually the character, like Mickey, could simply be described as "happy-go-lucky".) The Disney Studio just got lucky and Mickey's popularity ended up dwarfing those characters at other studios. Where-as Warner Brothers dumped Bosko in favor of new characters (Porky Pig, Daffy Duck). The fact that Disney continued to use the character of Mickey Mouse in later projects,\ (the color shorts, Fantasia, the Mickey Mouse Club) is why he has obtained the world renouned statud he has today.

You could also go into an argument over whether or not these images have any roots in comic portrayals of African Americans at the time.

Sorry for responding to an old post, btw!
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
I agree. I really liked Walt. He was a great guy. However, he was not the super nice guy that the Disney PR machine puts forth. Walt was a movie producer and he engaged in a lot of cutthroat and dishonest tactics in his time. I don't fault him for this behavior. His studio would have failed if he didn't resort to unethical and illegal tactics on many occasions. Film production has always been a very tough business and only the strong survive.

The bottom line is very simple. Walt was under contract to create a cartoon for the distributor. The distributor owned all rights to the characters in the cartoon. Walt was young and didn't realize that he "sold" Oswald away. It was a youthful indiscretion. Walt learned a valuable lesson.

Indeed, it all turned out swell. It took a lot of dishonest and illegal practices to make it all turn out swell. The creation of Mickey was only the first step! :wave:


What was "illegal" and "dishonest" about Walt's creation of Mickey? At most he simply built on the experience he gained on the Oswald cartoons and improved upon them - and Mickey was the result. A lot of art is inspired by other art. And there is a big difference between theft and inspiration.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
It was very common (and still is) for entertainment entrepreneurs to steal things from other people. Warner's created Porky Pig only because of the popularity of Disney's "The Three Little Pigs," and even released their cartoons under the name "Merry Melodies," eerily similar to Disney's "Silly Symphonies."
That said, I do not think there were any famous cartoon mice in 1926-27, and Disney just took his form from Oswald and placed it in the form of another small animal. Nothing unethical there. (look at his dealings with his unions for some examples of ruthless treatments)

Tex Avery, a director on Looney Tunes, once said that the look for Bugs Bunny was more-or-less stolen from Walt Disney's character Max Hare from the cartoon Tortoise and the Hare. He went on to say that people stole from Walt all the time, and that Walt was nice enough never to say anything about it.
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
"Good writers borrow from other writers. Great writers steal from them
outright.... "

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...."

In other words, there's no use in trying to judge Walt for coming up with a competitor to Oswald when so many others were willing to flatter him with their own "theft" of his work....
 

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
Interesting look back into the argument archives here. :lol:

I think it is clear that Mickey was a thinly disguised Oswald at the outset, but what seems to have gotten lost here was that almost ALL the big cartoon "stars" had the same basic look in the 1920s-'30s. You'd put the same basic whiteface on a black body (the easiest template to maintain visual integrity on the screen in those early days), change the shape of the ears a bit, and call it a rabbit (Oswald), mouse (Mickey), cat (Felix), little boy (Bosko)...or whatever your angle happened to be.

I know Woody isn't here to back up his opinion anymore, but calling Walt's creation of Mickey theft seems a little extreme, given that the level of talent and technology in the animation field hadn't allowed ANYONE to move beyond that basic visual prototype yet. :)
 

MarkTwain

Well-Known Member
The Oswald/Mickey debate is a valid one, but there's another issue we're overlooking, and what for me might be one of the biggest cover-ups in the Walt Disney Company.

Now I'm not saying Walt stole Mickey Mouse... merely that he may not have invented him. I've been reading a lot how it was his animator/employee, Ub Iwerks, that made the first drawings of Mickey, as well as was responsible for all of Mickey's animations after he created him. I think I remember reading that Ub made drawings of several farm animals, and Walt found the mouse the most appealing, and asked Ub to make more drawings of him. Walt gave the new character the name Mickey and eventually voiced him... but history will know Ub Iwerks as the man that invented him. Eventually Iwerks left Walt's company after feeling he didn't get the credit he deserved, which may well be true.

This may be what the OP's friend was thinking of. :shrug:
 

216bruce

Well-Known Member
Film and/or tv are collaborative mediums. No one individual is totally responsible for the product shown to the public. Thinking that Walt created Mickey, Disneyland, Snow White or the vast majority of "Disney" product during his lifetime is silly. He inspired, prodded, hired great folks and had an intuitive sense of what the public would love and what it craved.
Yep, Mickey looks like Oswald who looks like Bosco who looks like Felix. Film and TV are not just collaborative mediums but also highly copycat. Look at all the reality shows on tv, cop shows on tv, sequels and talking animal cg cartoons in theaters. None of this makes what Walt and Roy did any less amazing. Just think: "What other studio brand even exists independently anymore?" Universal? MGM? Nope...just Disney. Enjoy it folks and don't be too critical, it's something very unique.
 
To say that Mickey Mouse looks like Oswald is irrelavent because Walt Disney created them both.

As far as Ub Iwerks. If he had stayed with Disney he would not have felt mistreated. He could go down as one of the biggest idiots of all time. He owned stock in the Disney Company and when he left the company it was worth about $250,000. If he had stayed at Disney it would have ended up being worth millions maybe more since he had a very large stock. I'd hate to be related to him.
 
Many of the cartoon characters of the day looked very similar. combine that with the fact that Oswald and Mickey came from the hand and imagination of the same artist and you can see how it would make sense for them to look very similar. If Walt had a style when he worked for the studio, wouldn't he have the same style when he dissolved that partnership?

That isn't to say that Walt went out of his way to make them look different, or didn't know that they were similar.

Personality does come into play here, though as others mentioned, distinguishing personalities of cartoon characters in those days was difficult.

I still feel that Walt's questionable copyright infringement is not the same thing as stealing someone else's idea. To say he stole Mickey mouse makes it sound like he took the idea from someone else's character, but it was his own (creatively, if not legally).

At any rate, Mickey was different SOMEHOW from Oswald, somehow more special, since we're not all clamoring to go visit Oswald.
 

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